Here are posts to the hj list on the subject of conversion to/adoption of Judaism, and how this applies or should apply to Humanistic Judaism. Posts included here are by: Roger Eden (3) Mike Prival (2) Walter Hellman (4) Dennis Geller Mike Prival (2) Harold Black Judith Seid Al Tauber Bert Steinberg Miriam Jerris ........................................................................ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 02:31:33 -0800 From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion to Judaism The recent WWW posting on the Israeli Supreme Court recognising aspects of religious but not orthodox conversions, invited comments. Supposing I married into the Afro-Caribbean community, spent most of my time and energy with them, and identified with them, could I convert to be one? Probably my children would be members. If the state and religion were separated in Israel, there would not be this problem. The only gain the converts gets, is the label Jew and the ability to join religious activities. The label -Jew- is obviously important to many. However I am reluctant to be involved in conferring this label in some way. The experienece of HJ communities in the US where non-Jewish spouses fully participate is much admired, but what happens to singles/couples who are not Jews, but wish to be so? If I can't convert to be black, I can convert to -say- christianity, but I remain a Jew, Bishop Montefiore in England and Cardinal Archbishop Lustiger of Paris both talk of themselves as Jews. Like being black, it isn't really my choice, although of course I can ignore it a bit more than blacks. So what are we converting? and how what is an HJ attitude to those who want to be Jews? Roger Eden British Community for HJ ........................................................................ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 01:08:51 -0500 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion and Secular Humanistic Judaism Roger Eden says: The recent WWW posting on the Israeli Supreme Court recognising aspects of religious but not orthodox conversions, invited comments.... If the state and religion were separated in Israel, there would not be this problem. The only gain the converts gets, is the label Jew and the ability to join religious activities. The label -Jew- is obviously important to many. However I am reluctant to be involved in conferring this label in some way. The experience of HJ communities in the US where non-Jewish spouses fully participate is much admired, but what happens to singles/couples who are not Jews, but wish to be so?... So what are we converting? and how what is an HJ attitude to those who want to be Jews? Roger raises important issues for us as Secular Humanistic Jews. First, we should welcome the Israeli Supreme Court's decision. Even though we do not agree with the Reform and the Conservative that rabbinically supervised "conversion" is the only way to become Jewish, any official recognition of Jewish religious pluralism is of value to the large number of Israelis whose outlook is secular and humanistic. Roger questions the value of conversion. In Israel the value is high. It permits a person to claim automatic Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Since the Orthodox rabbis control family life under Israeli law--marriage, divorce, even most funerals--being Jewish also carries with it certain rights, such as the right to marry a Jew (although one loses the right to marry a non-Jew by becoming a Jew). Unfortunately, the Orthodox rabbis will continue to refuse to treat those converted in Israel by Reform or Conservative rabbis as Jews for purposes of marriage, etc., in spite of the Supreme Court decision. Outside of Israel, the benefits of conversion are, from the Secular Humanistic Jewish point of view, somewhat different. First, we don't have "conversion" as such, but recognize that non-Jews can become Jews by participating in Jewish life and honestly identifying with the history, culture, and fate of the Jewish people. This process may be marked by a ceremony or may occur by assimilation over a period of time. We often refer to "adoption" rather than "conversion." The sociological reality is that non-Jews who wish to become Jewish often do so simply by acting like Jews so that others consider them to be Jews. We Secular Humanistic Jews accept this reality, while the non-Humanist rabbis fight against it and assert their unique ability to "make" someone a Jew. Roger is understandably reluctant to "confer" the label of "Jew" on anyone. We don't do that; they confer Jewishness upon themselves by their attitudes and behavior. People who choose to become Jewish obviously think that they benefit by having a Jewish identity. Usually this benefit (unless the "conversion" is solely for the convenience of marriage) is the feeling of identification with the Jewish people. Most of us know people who were neither born nor raised as Jews for whom being Jewish is a central part of their sense of who they are. So, in answer to Roger's question, the attitude of Secular Humanistic Judaism toward non-Jews who want to be Jews is to welcome them into our communities, to invite their participation, and to recognize and respect their self-identification as Jews as being as legitimate as any other reason people have for asserting that they are Jewish, including Jewish descent or rabbinic conversion. ........................................................................ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:58:35 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion/Adoption Hello All, Happy Hanukah! Our local group had a wonderful Hanukah party this past Sunday. The communal menorah lighting was a highlight. Everyone brought their family menorah, we placed them all on one large table, lit them, sang a a lot, told stories, ate and had a wonderful time. About 80-90 came (about 20 kids). I agree with Adam that this holiday has its own special purpose, but I also agree with Jane that it's very nice to have this holiday occurring about this time! Now to a different topic: It seems to me that as a movement which primarily reaches out to unaffiliated Jews, that we will also have a significant involvement of unaffiliated "people." These are non-Jews, who, for one reason or another may be interested in joining us. It also seems to me that one of the major functions we need to provide is a means for non-Jews to identify themselves as part of the Jewish people. Traditionally, this would be called a "conversion" process. Sometimes "adoption" is used instead. The other branches of Judaism have fairly well defined conversion programs. I believe we need to make more generally available a dignified and substantial conversion/adoption program to those who would like to become Humanistic Jews. This would involve both a program and a ceremony of some sort. I am looking for ideas about what these might be like. Our local group is exploring this very topic. The Society for Humanistic Judaism encourages individual communities to develop such programs. It's _Guide To Humanistic Judaism_ contains this entry on "Conversion" (thanks Bert Steinberg for sending this): >From Mate1920@aol.comTue Dec 19 22:37:02 1995 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:30:17 -0500 From: Mate1920@aol.com To: hellman@teleport.com Subject: Archives The statement follows -- it is in the Appendix of the Guide: "We recognize the necessity of a new approach to Jewish conversion. We believe: 1. That Jewish identity is primarily a cultural and ethnic identity. 2. That belief systems are too diverse among Jews to serve as criteria for membership. 3. That joining the Jewish community is a process of cultural identification. 4. That a person who seeks to embrace Jewish identity should be encouraged to do so and should be assisted in that endeavor. 5. That the cultural instruction for conversion should be left to the discretion of each rabbi, congregation, or community. We are convinced that Jewish survival requires creative alternatives to traditional procedures." end of statement. I have also seen discussed the concept of "ger toshav," which is, I believe, a welcoming ceremony for a non-Jew who, while not ready for full conversion, wants to become part of the Jewish community...sort of a half way status. I understand the term literally means "resident outsider." We might want to explore this as well. We hear so much about the diminution of the number of practicing Jews. I believe there are many people who would like to join us. We need to provide them with a dignified means to do this. I know many have developed conversion/adoption programs and ceremonies and others have thoughts about this topic. I hope you will share them here to help us all out. What should the content of the program be? What, if any, ceremony should be available? What would it be like? Perhaps we can make a number of options available to communities. Thanks. Walter Hellman ........................................................................ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:56:21 -0500 (EST) From: DENNIS GELLER To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/Conversion/Adoption I understand Walter's thoughts on conversion/adoption, and don't deny that such a ritual might be useful in some congregations, for some folk. But, since some of the past leadership and presently most active members of Kahal B'raira were not originally Jewish, I am reminded o the story of the great Mathematician Garrett Birkhoff at Harvard, in the '20s I believe. Some administrator decided that it was not appropriate for Professors at Harvard to not have PhDs and proposed that all the faculty who fall into that class could submit some of their already completed work to a committee whiafter appropriate evaluation, would grant the degree. Birkhoff stood up in a faculty meeting, fixed the would grant the degree. Birkhoff stood up in a faculty meeting, fixed the would grant the degree. Birkhoff, perhaps the greatest mathematicin at Harvard at the time, stood up in a faculty committee, fixed the proposer with a deadly glare, and asked "And who, migh I ask, will judge MY work?" The whole idea was dropped. Seriously, I'm uncomfortable with this idea, now that I think about it. Why should such a ceremony be either offered to or expected of someone just because of the accident of birth? Is such a commitment required to be a member of the congregation? Why should I, a lapsed reform Jew who came back only because of what humanistic Judaism has to offer, not alo have to make such a public affirmation? Of course I know that Walter never had the thought of making this a "requirement" but only a joyful affirmation. As such, I could certainly choose to do the same. But, would that be "right" given that the ceremony was designed for previously non-Jews? On the third hand, I suppose tyhat anyone in the congregation could choose to have an adult Bat/Bar Mitzvah... Dennis GEller (Ph.D., so I'm allowed to tell the joke ) ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:53:36 -0500 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion/adoption; HJ in England & US Khappy Khanukah to everyone. I really enjoyed remembering Adam Sandler's Khanukah song thanks to Adam Chalom. Roger Eden says that he is having to abandon his small Humanistic Judaism group to escape from Astrologers and other seekers of strange things. That is really a shame after all the hard work he has put into this, but it is obviously the right thing to do under the circumstances. I wonder if there is something in our various national cultures that makes Secular Humanistic Judaism more acceptable in one place than in another. Jewish Secularism has a long and proud history in the United States (as it did in Poland and Russia), which we can tap into. That history somehow legitimizes what we do here. Maybe the Jewish community in England never developed secular Jewish movements in the past, so Jews there find it difficult to relate to. Remember that liberal Judaism (Reform and Conservative) is the major affiliation of U.S. Jews, but as far as I know these movements are only very small in other countries. Americans, it seems to me, do have a different "national character" than Europeans (and also Canadians) and we Jews are greatly affected by it--particularly the emphasis on individualism rather than communitarian concerns; perhaps also a greater willingness (or even desire) to be different from everyone else. The "Founding Fathers" of the United States were, at most, very marginally religious, and tried hard to keep organized religion out of national life. Maybe all of this makes is easier for a group like ours to attract members in the United States. I'd be interested in learning what others (particularly from other countries) think about this. Walter has again raised the issue of the "non-Jews" in our groups and how to bring them into the Jewish community. Our experience here in Washington D.C. is similar to that discussed by Dennis Geller of Kahal B'raira in the Boston area. We have many active members who were not raised as Jews. We treat them like anyone else, and they can participate actively as full members without any reservation on anyone's part. Since none of them has come forth and asked about "conversion" or "adoption", I have assumed that they are satisfied with the current situation in which we have had no ceremonies for becoming Jewish. When I want to discuss the Bible at a High Holiday service, I usually have a woman in our group who is a practicing Catholic (though her Catholic group is something of a renegade organization as well) do the Bible reading in Hebrew because she is one of the few women in our group who can read Hebrew. She lived on a kibbutz for 6 years, works in the financial office of the largest Reform temple in Washington D.C. (where, I understand, all the financial people are Catholics--go figure!), and took great pride and enjoyment in her son's Secular Humanist bar mitsvah several years ago. Am I to ask her if she wants to become Jewish? It seems to me that she's more Jewish than many Jews I know, even if she's Catholic. Why bring it up if everyone is happy? Another woman in our group once gave a beautiful talk at Yom Kippur about the visit she and her husband made to one of the death camps in Poland. She said that she stood there thinking about all the children who passed through that place, and about her own children who were being raised with the same Jewish identity as those who were murdered. She said that she then realized that, although she is not Jewish by descent, the Jewishness of her children binds her completely to the Jewish People and thus makes her Jewish. Although not Jewish by descent, she is Jewish by ascent, as she put it. Is there a ceremony that we can devise that could add to the depth of her feelings about this? I doubt it. It may be that there are some who would like a "conversion" or "adoption" ceremony, but unless the people involved express a desire for it, I see no reason to single them out as being different from anyone else. It see it as only potentially divisive and counterproductive. Dennis' suggestion of an adult bar/bat mitsvah seems like a good way to deal with this. A group bar/bat mitsvah ceremony for adults is probably a good idea for many of our groups anyway-- both for the "born" Jews and anyone else who is interested. Mike Prival Machar The Washington D.C. Area Congregation for Humanistic Judaism ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:32:41 GMT From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion to being a Jew Suppose I married into the Afro-Caribbean community, I could be fully accepted as an honorary member, but would not be Afro-Caribbean. My children probably would be. What conversion could be made? Is it not the same with Jews? On the other hand Non-Jews joining us want some form of Hechsher (stamp of kashrut, an official conversion) - precisely what we cannot give. Nothing we do will make the person a Jew in a way that will be recognised by other Jewish communities. If the mother is the non-Jew, then the children will also be unacceptable to them. All we can do therefore, is provide some ceremony that welcomes them to our community, of which they can be full and active members, but I can't see how we can convert anyone - from what to what? Roger Eden ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Re: Conversion/Adoption & Initials Hello All, If solutions to problems ultimately arise from different people advocating opposite positions ("dialectic"), then I will continue to do my part here. My view is that HJ is a legitimate branch of Judaism. In response to Roger Eden who asks, "what would a non-Jew convert to?", my response is Judaism. That rabbi's who do not recognize us might not approve will not matter so much as long as we are a viable Jewish organization. This is what will matter to people who join us. Certainly such a process would not be required to join us. Mike Prival gives good examples of non-Jews, who by actions, have mainstream pillars of our group and who also never made a formal statement of becoming Jewish. Fine. But the fact remains that adopting a religion is a serious matter. Many people will want some sort of ceremony/process to mark the adoption. We have ceremonies for far less important things in our lives and in Judaism in general. We should have a ceremony/process available for those who desire it. Oddly, I see a connection between this issue and a previous post of Hershl Hartman regarding whether the use of initials to describe our movement is self-deprecating. I was waiting to see if anyone else responded and since they haven't, I thought I would respond (especially given the name of this list). First, in regard to the list, it is run on the UNIX operating system for which standard practice is to use only lower case letters in an address. Second, since mail can be lost easily with complicated addresses, Al Tauber suggested simply calling the list hj. In general, there are many places where brevity results in accuracy and this is one of those in my opinion. Second, the initials are always upper case, "HJ" when in a non- computer context. I view the use of initials here not as self- deprecating, but conveying an atmosphere of comfortable familiarity. Third, in any kind of formal statement, initials are not used. Now in regard to the previous issue, I think Roger's question is somewhat representative of the view that HJ's are not real Jews. This may be especially hard to accept in England for the reasons Mike gave (in what I thought was a very interesting analysis). Nevertheless, the view that we are somehow not real Jews, is to my mind, a form of self- deprecation. I suspect that, as humanists, one thing we all have in common is a hatred of dogma. "Religion" translates in many minds as "dogma" and I think this is one reason why many HJ's step very gingerly around the issue that Judaism is a religion. Still, to me, it is clear that the translation is no longer true, not just for us, but as was pointed out earlier, for the many branches of Christianity which are no longer dogmatic. To me, then, it is perfectly OK to be part of something which is a "religion," and Humanistic Judaism is part of the Jewish one. Walter Hellman ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:50:40 -0500 From: HAROLD BLACK To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ conve3rsion Hey, what's all this stuff about conversion? You want to lose half your membership? If that's what you want, try it. If you want to treat everyone alike then maybe you ought to think about a new member induction ceremony. It would give us another reason to have a party. I hear parties are nice. Harold Black, Machar The Washington DC congregation ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:29:18 GMT From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion, and also why UK is not US Jews are surely an ethnic group with a shared ancestry, I don't much like the idea that HJ might be a religion. I am still not clear what anyone converts to (or from). It really seems to apply to ideas that are mutually exclusive, so if you convert, you cease to be what you were before. I can understand people joining (and a ceremony to mark it), but don't understand conversion. The UK has an established religion, God help us - the Queen is the Head of the Official religion - Anglicanism. The top 23 Bishops automatically sit in the House of Lords (like Congress). The Anglo-Jewish Community emulates this, that's why we have an official Chief Rabbi, he's really only the leading Rabbi of the United Synagogue (about US orthodox), but he's treated by the whole country as though he were the official Head of all Anglo-Jews. So unless the Chief Rabbi takes notice of our organisation, the community thinks that is has no worth. At least there is some animosity with the Reform, Masorti etc. Some community funds go to them. HJ can be ignored. Unless we get our own Rabbi, things won't move. There are some Rabbi's I speak to, who are really HJ's, but they won't come out of the closet - Orthodox Rabbinical pressure is too strong. Even they want some seal of approval from the Chief! Roger Eden, British Community for HJ ........................................................................ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:56:18 -0500 From: JudithSeid@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ conversion I like to use the term "kabalat nilvah," or welcoming the joiner for a ceremony for those who have chosen to be part of the Jewish people. "Adoption" already has a perfectly good meaning in English, and celebrating one's identity with the Jewish people isn't it. Our situation here in Ann Arbor is much like the situation described by Mike Prival. We have many active members who were not born Jews. Some of them still say, "I'm not Jewish, but..." A few have started - finally - saying "I wasn't born Jewish." Two have told me they might like a formal ceremony so that they would feel more comfortable saying in public, as they say in their hearts, "I am Jewish." An adult confirmation (Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a function of age) sounds like a good idea. We have a few folks interested, but not enough for someone to put the hard work in to a course of study with them. Of course, if they were really interested, we'd do it, but it's only a "it might be nice" sort of wanting to at this point. Judith Seid ........................................................................ From: Al Tauber To: Walter Hellman Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Re: Conversion/Adoption & Initials > The accident of being born Jewish does not qualify me in any preferred way over a non jew who want to be part of a Humanistic Jewish commuity. You can create no requirements for non jews that won't have to equally apply to jews. Since that is impractical we cannot not in any way apply conditions to membership other than the identification with the Jewish hertiage, future and humanism. Al Tauber ........................................................................ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:22:48 -0500 From: Mate1920@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversions, etc. I want to echo Walter Hellman and Al Tauber's posts re "Conversion"--or to use the preferred Humanistic Judaism Guide's cemantics -- adoption. For Roger -- and any others who have trouble with this -- I am posting the Guide's statement. (Walter, you may want to archive this, as well). ADOPTION Many Humanistic Jews prefer the word adoption to conversion in describing the procedure whereby a non-Jewish person becomes Jewish. While religious communities, like Christianity and Islam, typically are united by common beliefs, there are no beliefs or teachings that all Jews share and that define their membership in the Jewish community. Jewish atheists are no less Jewish than are theists. Viewed in this light, "adoption" into the Jewish "family," rather than conversion to a religious faith, more accurately conveys the meaning of the process by which a person not born of a Jewish mother or father becomes a member of the Jewish community. A person's decision to be Jewish makes her or him so. Often, in preparation for the decision, the prospective adoptee undertakes a program of study and introspection, usually under the guidance of a knowledgable leader or teacher. Areas of study may include the nature of Jewish identity and of contemporary Jewish community, as well as Jewish history, holidays, and beliefs. A formal ritual of acceptance into the Jewish people, though unneccesary, is appropriate. Some Humanistic Jewish communities have developed such celebrations of welcome. There are references for additional reading -- Robert Barr, "Adopting Judaism," Humanistic Judaism, 16:4, Autumn 1988; Daniel Freidman, "Jewish Identity and Conversion," Humanistic Judaism, 14:1, Spring, 1986; Sherwin Wine, "Celebration", 1988; and Sherwin Wine, Judaism Beyond God,", 1985. --end of Quote from Guide. To Judith Seid, and any others-- as for a course of study and/or a welcoming ceremony -- I can strongly recommend what were my assignments from Sherwin Wine for my Bar Mitzvah (would apply for adoptees, as well)--Howard Fast, "The Jews" (a history); Hayyim Schauss', "The Lifetime of a Jew" (Celebrations and Life Cycle events); and Hayyim Schauss', "The Jewish Festivals." I would now add the new anthology edited by Renee Kogel and Zev Katz, "Judaism in a Secular Age." Finally, as for a ceremony of welcome or for adoption, I refer you to the text of what we used for my Bar Mitzvah last month. It is archived -- it is basically a ceremony of "Commitment" and is appropriate for use at any time, by any community, as a Shabbat service, "Adoption" or whatever. It went well and was widely appreciated by our attendees. If it is easier for anyone who is unfamiliar in downloading Archives, I will be glad to mail a printed copy of the Ceremony if you email me your snail mail address. (You, too, Roger.) Shalom chaver. Bert Steinberg ........................................................................ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:08:55 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Cc: Society for Humanistic Judaism Subject: Re: HJ/ Conversion/Adoption Hello All, I'm very glad we got input on this topic. The responses have helped me clarify my thinking on the issue. In fact, it seems to me there is a consensus about how to handle it: Mike Prival, Judith Seid and Bert Steinberg all suggested in one way or another that the bar/bat mitzvah ceremony could serve as a welcoming/adoption/conversion/renewal vehicle for those who would like it. I think this is a great idea. It satisfies the condition stated by Al Tauber and others that a non-Jew should not "have" to go through any step to join the movement that a Jew would. It combines both educational and celebratory components as well exemplified in Bert Steinberg's archived programs. It is already close in meaning to this use in that more and more Jews are choosing this means later in life to affirm, or re-affirm their Jewishness. The term "confirmation" is often used for the event. It can be used equally by non-Jews wishing to adopt Judaism, as well as never affiliated, or ex-affiliated Jews wishing to re-establish their ties. Because of the rich tradition, even in relatively young HJ, of bar/bat mitvah events, we have much to draw from in terms of material. We are not starting from ground zero. There are many people who will not want or need to use this vehicle. But there are many people who will. There are practical difficulties, as Roger Eden has stated. As Bert Rothschild wrote, however, we need to maintain our pride as Jews and the belief in our way of being Jewish. If this is a legitimate movement, and I believe it is of course, then we will grow. Our actions will take on more and more respectability and acceptance. They certainly will not if we do not stay with what we believe. With the bar/bat mitzvah, we can present a concrete process, for those who wish it, to mark their adoption of Judaism... to become Jewish. In reading the official SHJ statements posted by Bert Steinberg, I do not see the bar/bat miztvah services specifically mentioned as a means to mark adoption/renewal of Judaism in one's life. I think a concrete suggestion such as this would be a great help to communities. Could existing statements be modified to include this adoption/renewal method? Walter Hellman ........................................................................ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:33:03 -0500 From: Msjerris@aol.com To: hellman@teleport.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Conversion/Adoption Walter, Couldn't each community develop a welcoming ceremony for new members whether Jews or non-Jews. I hate to see the distinctions between Jews and non-Jews made all the time. It seems to me that a non-Jew would either want to become a Jew or just identify with the community. Community identification wouldn't necessarily have to make the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. Miriam Jerris ........................................................................ From MPrival@aol.comThu Jan 25 20:34:56 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:10:26 -0500 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Conversion and Khanukah verse On the subject of "conversion" or "adoption", I just want to agree with Miriam Jerris that any ceremony developed should be made equally applicable to "born" Jews as to others. A bar/bat mitsvah ceremony is designed to enhance one's knowledge of Judaism and Humanism and to affirm one's commitment to the Jewish people and to the Humanistic outlook. Those who were born into Jewish families are usually in just as much need of enhancing their knowledge and affirming their commitment as anyone else. [rest of post on different subject...ed] ........................................................................ From: Walter Hellman To: Msjerris@aol.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Conversion/Adoption On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 Msjerris@aol.com wrote: > Walter, > Couldn't each community develop a welcoming ceremony for new members whether > Jews or non-Jews. I hate to see the distinctions between Jews and non-Jews > made all the time. It seems to me that a non-Jew would either want to become > a Jew or just identify with the community. Community identification wouldn't > necessarily have to make the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. Miriam > Jerris Mike Prival raised a similar point, so I guess I didn't communicate very well. What I am excited about is the very fact that the bar/bat mitzvah can be used both by anyone who wants to make a formal statement that they are Jewish. It can be done by disaffiliated Jews, never affiliated Jews, and non-Jews wanting to become Jewish. The event well serves the purpose in all these cases. We do not need to know the background of the person doing it. It does not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews. It provides a powerful way to learn about Judaism and make a public identification as a Jew at the same time. Since Bert has made his ceremony public, it's worth looking at that. Bert has said that although he always considered himself Jewish, he never wanted to "affiliate" in any formal way until he discovered HJ. He has also referred to his as a "confirmation" ceremony. This is done at age 75. Would it be any different if Bert had not been raised to believe he was Jewish? I don't think so. The confirmation would have been just as powerful, just as meaningful. While Bert's speech would have been much different, the effect and result would be the same. If someone wants to join Judaism for whatever reason, and is looking for a formal way to do this in Humanistic Judaism, I think the bar/bat mitzvah is a good suggestion. I remain excited about this. I think this could become a tradition within HJ, something to distinguish us and our branch of Judaism. It sets a very good example precisely in NOT discriminating on the basis of a person's background or age. If the evolution of Judaism means continually adopting existing traditions in appropriate ways to solve new problems, the bar/bat mitzvah is crying out to be used this way! Walter Hellman