The killing of many innocent Israeli civilians, including children, by an Arab suicide bomber in April 1996 brought out strong feelings from hj list members. The relation of Humanistic Judaism to Israel is frequently discussed on a theoretical basis, but this tragic event tested this relationship on a very emotional level. wh Posts included here by: Mike Prival Adam Chalom (2) Bill Baum Richard Sherman Susan Lerner Hillary Shemin Alision Jerris Lewis Gollub Rivka Gates (2) From MPrival@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:14:54 -0500 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Israel ------------------------------------------------------------- SUBJECT: Israel This is a very difficult time. Even a long-term committed peacenik like me finds it hard right now to imagine continuing the peace process-- turning over more territory to Arafat, negotiating over the future of Jerusalem. Is it possible that the peace process has gone far enough for now, at least with regard to the Palestinians? It is my understanding that the Israelis remain in control of Hebron, which would continue to be a difficult problem area in any case because of the remaining Jews who won't leave. I don't see how negotiations on Jerusalem could ever lead to anything that the Palestinians would accept anyway. They may get some rights, but never sovereignty over any portion of Jerusalem. So why bother negotiating? Why not just stop for a while and give the Palestinian Authority a chance to learn how to control the people and land it already has? There will probably now be a limiting of access to Israel by Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza for a protracted period. This will increase unrest and make Arafat's life harder. When he develops the capacity to deal with his internal problems, including controlling the bombers, then the peace process might continue. Until then, a period of quiet tension would be better than the current situation of violence while pursuing peace. Presumably the real incentive to keep working on peace with the Palestinians is that it is a necessary condition for a peace settlement with the Arab states, especially Syria. But how can we expect the Israelis to want a peace that leads to continuing slaughter of civilians? In any case, since the Jerusalem issue seems unresolvable, the Syrians and others will have to accept peace without Palestinian satisfaction anyway. I can only say that I share the grief and anger of the people of Israel, and I hope that we will all support whatever measures they take in response to the tragic events of the past few days. Maybe the future will bring more hopeful times, but it is hard to find hope when the price for continuing the peace process is so high. Mike Prival Machar The Washington D.C. Area Congregation for Humanistic Judaism ......................................................................... From adam.chalom@yale.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 01:30:01 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Chalom To: Humanistic Judaism Subject: HJ/ Israeli Tragedy TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS WITH TRANSLATION I attempted my own. (sorry, no Yiddish yet) II SAMUEL 19:1 "O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom; would that I had died instead of you, Absalom my son, my so," "Beni Avshalom, beni, beni Avshalom; Mi-Yi'ten Mooti Ani Takh'tekha, Avshalom Beni, Beni." "Mi hijo Avshalom, mi hijo, mi hijo; Que Yo he morido en tu lugar, Avshalom mi hijo, mi hijo." "Mon fils Avshalom, mon fils, mon fils; Que J'etais mort en ta place, Avshalom mon fils mon fils." Like Mike Prival, I am a committed "peace-nik." However, the last attack in Tel Aviv filled me with extreme rage and sorrow. I read that there was some kind of children's carnival going on which the terrorist wanted to blow up, but the high security inside the mall led him to explode himself outside, which still killed some children. At this point, the Palestinean terrorists, and perhaps many Palestineans, obviously do not view the Israelis as human beings. One does not plan the death of hundreds of children of other people whose lives at some basic level you value as being the same as yours. I don't know the solution. But the end goal must be the recognition by the Palestinean people that an Israeli life is just as valuable as a Palestinean one. Right not, that is not the case, as Palestinean terrorists are using Israeli lives as bargaining chips or publicity. I cannot wish anyone a Happy Purim; the joy of holiday mixes ill with my tears of sorrow. Adam Chalom ......................................................................... From eb28580@goodnet.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:29:12 -0700 From: Bill Baum To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Israeli bombings I rarely write to this address, but this morning, after reading the posts by Mike Prival and Adam Chalom, I feel compelled to add my thoughts. I too am in deep sorrow and deep anger over the bombings in Israel. I suppose almost everyone connected with hj considers him/her self a pacifist. Yet, like Mike and Adam, I too am filled with anger. I find myself wanting to yell, "KILL THE BASTARDS". At the same time I feel shame because I have these feelings. How can I feel so strongly about something when I've been taught and have taught my children and grandchildren to be pacifists and humanists? It is a sad time for Israel, but they will, somehow, overcome. Bill Baum ......................................................................... From rsherman@rain.org Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:27:00 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Sherman To: MPrival@aol.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Israel Dear Mike and other HJ, This is, indeed, a terribly sad time for Israel; I don't remember a time when I have felt so helpless about events there. However, I believe that the peace process does need to continue, as ultimately only a comprehensive settlement can curb the long term pattern of violence. The alternative leaves Israel in the less tenable position as occupier of the West Bank and its Palestinian residents. Palestinians are not a monolith, any more than Arabs are. Arafat is our SOB and Israel needs to work with him or around him--but preferably the former--to curtail in any way possible the military wing of Hamas as well as Islamic Jihad. (Incidentally, I am not a pacifist, a term one of our members ascribed to hj ers). Finally, a settlement with the Palestinians is central to the current crisis in the region, and not peripheral to relationships with Syria, Lebanon, or other Arab countries. Workiing together with the PA and other Palestinians to marginalize or eliminate the extreme/terrorist factions will be Israel's greatest challenge in its quest for a secure future. I believe that they can and must do so. B'shalom, Richard Sherman ......................................................................... From Meydele@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 02:29:19 -0500 From: Meydele@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Israel Having newly joined this list, I was going to "lurk" awhile before jumping in, but I feel compelled to respond to Mike Prival and Adam Chalom. There is no question that we all share the grief and shock of the Israelis at the recent horrific events. However, do we wish to reward Hamas and other demented fanatics by showing them that their inhumane and uncivilized tactics are a very effective way to get what they want? For that is what calling off - or suspending for some indeterminate time period - the peace process does. I deplore terrorism from either side. The Israeli government must and will protect its people. But to say that the hate mongers and war mongers are right, we (or more importantly, the Israeli people) do not have the stomach for peace, is to award them a complete and unconditional victory. How can we or the Israelis do that? As for more, I defer to Richard Sherman's weel-reasoned comment. Susan Lerner ......................................................................... From shas@primenet.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:50:34 -0700 (MST) From: shas To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ RE: Israeli Bombings I rarely write to this address, but this morning, after reading the posts by Mike Prival and Adam Chalom, I feel compelled to add my thoughts. I'm glad you shared your post, Bill. This is a good way to release your emotion and get support from others who feel the same. Part of what HJ is all about, isn't it? I feel support from reading these posts. I feel a unity with other Jews at a time like this is so important. >I too am in deep sorrow and deep anger over the bombings in Israel. I >suppose almost everyone connected with hj considers him/her self a pacifist. I never was really a pacifist, 'cause I never trusted that the Arabs really could live in peace with the Jews and the peace process would put Israelis at risk. Of course, I would have loved to have been proven wrong. The fundamental differences of the RELIGIONS is the root cause and has been for too many generations for it to suddenly end now. I may sound a bit simplistic, but that has always been my gut feeling. >Yet, like Mike and Adam, I too am filled with anger. I find myself wanting >to yell, "KILL THE BASTARDS". At the same time I feel shame because I have >these feelings. How can I feel so strongly about something when I've been >taught and have taught my children and grandchildren to be pacifists and >humanists? You feel strongly because you ARE still a pacifist, but you and your 'family' have been pushed into a corner and you remember the words, "Never Again!" You aren't going against your pacifism, It's a natural respose for DEFENDING yourself! As a human being you (your people) have been treated as less than human. They (the Arabs of Hamas) are not Humanists, but, you still are. I don't think you are alone...I know I am there with you in my thoughts too. >It is a sad time for Israel, but they will, somehow, overcome. > >Bill Baum > My heart is torn with grief for the loss of life, the pain, the injuries and the shattering of families of these Israelis. I only know, I too could have been there and they would have been as happy to kill me or my family as anyone, just because I am a Jew. No questioning who is Jewish from the Religious party on this one! I'm glad I have this forum where I can share my feelings of sorrow. Shalom, Hillary Shemin Regards to Elaine ......................................................................... From adam.chalom@yale.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:07:50 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Chalom To: Humanistic Judaism Subject: Re: HJ/ Israel On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 Meydele@aol.com wrote: > the recent horrific events. However, do we wish to reward Hamas and other > demented fanatics by showing them that their inhumane and uncivilized tactics > are a very effective way to get what they want? For that is what calling off > - or suspending for some indeterminate time period - the peace process does. > Or perhaps CONTINUING the peace process so as to give the Palestinean Authority more control and more freedom faster is what they want. I think the terrorists are more angry at what they consider the slow pace of their independence than the entire peace process. We have official peace with the PA; now we must have security, which has been the rationale behind the peace process all along. Adam Chalom ......................................................................... From JERRISA@carleton.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:45 1996 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 11:18:37 -0600 (CST) From: JERRISA@carleton.edu To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ israel. My jewish students union cancelled purim celebrations this week, not because of the bombings in Israel, but due to overloads of stress and work due to finals. However, it did give 6 of the students a chance to get together at the house to discuss the present situation in Israel. 4 of the 6 of us are planning on goin to Israel this summer. One student had just returned form the middle east studying the peace process for a semester. One students parents were at the Dizzengoff 10 minutes before the bomb went off in Tel Aviv in Israel. We had an interesting conversation. It ranged a variety of topics. form Whether to go, to whether our parents will let us go. To what hurts more, knowing that we may be going to Israel in a war zone, or the thought of not going at all. I made the decision to keep my travel plans, as had two other students. For us, the thought of missing a trip, was worse then going with a threat of bombings. Most of us were more concerned over the attitude of the Israeli people and governmnet, than the actual threat of the bombings. I have stopped trying to rationalize irrational acts, because it is futile, it hurts me deep inside to see a country in turmoil. But soon I will see it first hand and I am still more than excited about my planned trip. I think that if everyone concentrates on the anger and the hate, we will be no better than the suicide bombings. I would be in Israel tomorrow if I could be. And will be in the middle east for 6 months starting in june, fulfilling one of my dreams and conducting my research in a beautiful region of the world, bombs or on bombs. (btw, thanks mom) - aj alison jerris northfield mn ......................................................................... From gollub@wam.umd.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:46 1996 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 13:41:13 EST From: Lewis Gollub To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Arafat and peace. I agree with the recently expressed sentiment that only the Israelis can decide how to react to the recent outrages. As much as we sympathize and support the State of Israel, only her citizens' lives and welfare are on the line and only they will pay the price if the wrong decision is made. As much as we wish for peace in that region, we should remember that peace is a reciprocal relationship. It cannot be expressed by only member in a conflict. As much as we may think that peaceful relations with Israel are also in the best interests of Arafat and the other Palestinians, we must see what they do and say when not in the glare of examination by the western press. Terroristic killing innocent people forbodes ill. Also, statements by Arafat to his Arab compatriots should question the seriousness of his interest in peace with Israel. The Wall STreet Journal reported today that Arafat made the following statement to a closed meeting of Arab ambasadors in Stockholme on January 30: "The PLO will now concentrate on splitting Israel psychologically into two capms. Within five years we will have six million to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem." Similarly, recall that Arafat called the bomb-maker Ayash a martyr. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. If Israel is to continue following the path to peace, Arafat will have to take substantial steps to reduce the current armed conflict against Israel. (And why does he continue to wear military garb? If he is indeed following a political and diplomatic path he might be more convincing if he dressed the part.) (By the way, did you know that the killer of Mr. Klinghofer on the Achille Lauro "escaped" from his Italian prison? This story has so far been unreported in the Washington Post.) ......................................................................... From RchayaG@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:46 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:45:55 -0500 From: RchayaG@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Peace Process Hamas is NOT th PLO. Just because there are extremist groups on both sides (to nam a few Jewish ones, Kach and Kahane Chai) doesn't mean we should give in to them. Rivka Gates ......................................................................... From RchayaG@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:46 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:45:59 -0500 From: RchayaG@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Peace Please pretend you see me hitting my head against the wall. We hav taken lives also. You think that shooting in a mosque is maybe good. We are not innocent. Hamas has a base in Syria and often works out of Lebanon. If we refuse to make peace with thoses countries Hamas will probably be worse. HAmas doesn't like the peace process but they don't like Jews in Israel either. If youi want to be safe move out of Israel. If you want a safe counyry for my kid (when and if I have them) than work for peace. Don't give in to Hamas! Rivka Gates end of file