Ed Note: More discussion from the hj list on HJ's views on God. Posts included here by: Walter Hellman Al Tauber James Harley Mike Prival Alison Jerris Les Kaufman Additional Posts added 8/26 by: Hans Leander Ron Guetta Bernie Banet Franco Piazzese Bob Wolfe ....................................................................... From hellman@teleport.comSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ and theism Hello All, Recently I received a question in response to a description of HJ given in the introductory materials to this list and the web page. This description states that HJ is for "Jews who wish to maintain their Jewish identity in a non-theistic manner." The question was, "What does this mean?" While a related discussion occurred on the list a few months back, we have new subscribers now and I think it's a good time to initiate a general discussion of what it means for HJ, as a branch of Judaism, to be "non-theistic." Rabbi Wine and others have written on this topic, and I don't pretend to start this off with any "official" positions, but more towards what the description means to me personally. I will start out with what I feel most sure of and go down from there: 1. Divine authority can have no place in the running if society, its ethics and its principles. Even if there is a God, no one knows its will or can speak for it. Even if Scripture was divinely revealed, the only way to use it is through human interpretation...which is as open to disagreement as any document. To claim to speak in God's name was precisely what Jesus did and this is precisely why Jews rejected him. People usually use the claim of divine authority to strengthen beliefs they already have. Claims to have "God on your side" eliminate the possibility of rational discussion. 2. The faith of Humanistic Jews is in the values developed by the Jewish people through the ages rather than their Personification. For Jews, God has been the Personification of what we believe in. We were the people who developed the idea of one law for all people. This is personified in the idea of one God. Jews played perhaps the major role in the development of the the humanistic values of justice, charity and building for the social good of all. The vengeful God of the ancient Hebrews evolved, in parallel, into the merciful, God of goodness. 3. Humanistic Judaism does not affirm or deny the existence of a higher power in the universe. I believe Rabbi Wine has referred to the HJ position as "ignostic," that is, for all matters of behavior, the question must be ignored (see point 1 above). The question of whether life has a larger purpose beyond our comprehension is a private matter and a basic mystery of life itself. Humanistic Jews spiritual appreciation of this mystery, our faith in the values developed by our people, and our hope for the future, is every bit as deeply felt as that of Orthodox, Reform and other Jews. Walter Hellman ....................................................................... From atauber@teleport.comSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Al Tauber To: Walter Hellman Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ and theism The Guide to Humanistic Judaism says the following about Ignosticism: Ignosticism is the assertion that the question of God's existence is meaningless, because it has no verififable consequents. Humananistic Judaism finds no meaning in the worship of God, whether or not he exists. I have been an Ignostic all of my life. To me it is clear that people have invented Gods from the beginning of human history, to deal with the unknown powerful forces they face, and specifically death. Gods are conforting to have. When you set out to live a secular life you need an emotional where with all to face the unknowns. In times of stress its a price I am willing to pay in order to have my intellectual freedom. ....................................................................... From hellman@teleport.comSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 18:21:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Walter Hellman To: Msjerris@aol.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ and theism On Sun, 8 Oct 1995 Msjerris@aol.com wrote: > For people still needing more I suggest that you read the Guide to Humanistic > Judaism. There is a fairly complete discussion of God. There is also a very > old issue of Humanistic Judaism on God and HJ. Most of the HJ group libraries > should have a copy. I can't remember if the Society office still has copies. > Miriam Jerris > The Guide entry on God is in the archive related to this list. Those without a copy of the Guide can find it there. It is the file whoisgod.shj. Access the article either through the web page (http://www.teleport.com/~hellman) or by sending the following mail to majordomo@teleport.com: get hj whoisgod.shj end Information is posted regarding how to obtain the whole Guide. Thanks to Bert Steinberg for posting it. Walter Hellman ....................................................................... From eden@siftac.easynet.co.ukSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:05:49 +0100 From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: God In the London Platform - a posting some time ago, which is now on the Web HJ archive - I tried to explain about God. I found that the ignostic idea was insufficient for newcomers to HJ in the UK. Some of them want the discussion ad nauseum, so it was no use claiming that its no use discussing it, just because there is no satisfactory outcome to the discussion. Basically it seems to me that God is an emotional experience that many people have, arising from literature, ritual and communal behaviour. For them, interaction wih this God is meaningful, through prayer or whatever. Their emotional experiences exist (just as greif and joy exist), and therefore - for them (and in this context for me)- God exists. Beyond the emotional experience there is no external reality to God. For those without such emotional experience, there is no basis for such a beleif. Actually, BELEIF in God seems mildly psychologically dysfunctional to me. Does the issue affect peoples behaviour in any positive way, and is there any other criteria that should interest us? Roger Eden eden@siftac.easynet.co.uk (Roger Eden) ....................................................................... From DENNIS@epub.ziff.comSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 08:02:20 -0500 (EST) From: DENNIS GELLER To: hellman@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ and theism Walter Hellman posed and answered: >"Jews who wish to maintain their Jewish >identity in a non-theistic manner." The question was, "What does this >mean?" There are only two second order additions I'd suggest to Walter's excellect and concise answer. First, to not exclude folk from a non-Jewish background. True, most if not all of those in our congregation have close personal ties to Jewish members, but they are not in general passive tag-alongs, but in many cases have been leaders of the congregation and active in both the "jewish" and "humanistic" sides of our non-creed. Second, although Walter addressed this implicitly in his second paragraph, to speak to the question of why we are different from other secular or humanistic gatherings or "ig-nostic" religions (i.e., I think, UUism). Part of the answer is that we are drawn to a Jewish "patina" because of family history and cultures, but that's only a skin-deep answer. Although I can't pretend to a scholarly basis for this, it becomes more and more clear to me that there is a truly humanistic and ig-nostic thread through all of the ancient Jewish religion. This came home anew during our Yom Kippur services and the implicit assumption that comes through from the traditional religion people, even knowing the "word of "God", will screw up. (Rabbi Don Pollock likes to point out that the story of our relationship with the biblical god is one of promising to follow and obey and be grateful, and then sliding away.) I think it's important that our religious traditions have always understood that people will and must act as people. I can't form that into a clear and shining distinction with other traditions, but to me it is a humanistic thread that spans the cultures and centuries and links me to J and the other early codifiers of Judaism. Dennis Geller Congregation Kahal B'Raira ....................................................................... Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "James Harley Jr." To: Roger Eden Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: God It's too bad so many people are hung=up on God. From my perspective, too much of wasted time and energy is spent on discussing gods, money spent on to glorify god -- all of which would be better directed to helping humans. [Sorry about this, but too much god talk makes me angry.] Jim H. ....................................................................... From MPrival@aol.comSat Oct 28 09:46:47 1995 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:02:38 -0400 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Thank God I'm a Humanist! The comments of Roger Eden and of James Harley Jr. (10/9/95) are both right on the mark in expressing the futility of discussing God. When asked about God, my approach is to explain that, as Humanistic Jews we don't deal with God and that the purpose of our organization is to provide a Jewish home for those who agree with our Humanistic and non-theistic outlook. If people disagree with this, there is no point in trying to convince them otherwise--as Roger Eden says, their emotional experience is not going to be reversed by our rational explanations. There are plenty of Jews out there who already agree with our outlook; we should be looking for them and telling them that our organization exists. It is almost always futile to try to convince theists that we are right and they are wrong. For me, personally, this "ignostic" stuff is a little too weak (and can lead to endless discussion by confusing people, as Roger Eden has discovered). When asked directly, I state that I am an atheist. This is a strong word that can turn people off, but it is the truth. I also say that you don't have to be an atheist to be a Humanist, but that as an organization we do not pray or refer to God or the supernatural. Personal beliefs within the organization can vary, but the organization itself must remain consistently Humanistic and non-theistic. I usually explain to people that there are many non-theists comfortably affiliated with more traditional Jewish congregations who are there because they enjoy the religious traditions. The difference between Humanistic Judaism and other forms of Judaism is that we are non-theistic AND we say only those things that we believe. In our view, our "religion" is too important a place to say things that we don't believe. In particular, this is how we differ from classical Reconstructionism, which was non- supernaturalist in philosophy but kept the Conservative prayers. If members of Humanistic Jewish organizations want to spend time discussing God, they have joined the wrong group and should be directed elsewhere. Otherwise, they will waste your time and possibly destroy your group. Mike Prival Machar/The Washington D.C. Congregation for Humanistic Judaism ....................................................................... From: Al Tauber To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Memes and HJ I have had a 50 avocation on the nature of human nature. Recently I ran across a releatively new concept call memes that helps explain a great deal of irrational and non rational human behavoir. A mene is a unit of cultural information comparable in its effects on society to those of genes. These cultural instructions are passed on from one generation to the next by example and imitation. Menes, once created take on a life of their own. They can be helpful, they can be destructive. The GOD mene has been around for 10,000 years. We should not be surprised that it is buried deeply in many people. Our Jewish holidays are menes as well as the associated ceremonies. One of the Jewish menes that I subscribe to "is to perfect the world" In my mind we in HJ should be deliberately be creating new memes to compete and replace older theist driven memes so that we can make a positive contribution to those around us and to future generations. These should include modifications to the existing ceremonies we observe, continuing the practise of service modifiction which can be shown to have happened over thousands of years, so that the memes we create can become institutionalized. atauber@teleport.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with Teleport Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81) ....................................................................... From jharl@sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.usSat Oct 28 09:46:48 1995 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 18:35:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "James Harley Jr." To: HJ Host Subject: Thank Yahweh I'm a Humanist, et. al. Not related, but a comment by Mike Prival reminded me of something I heard on NPR recently. Mike stated (generally) that if people disagree (and I assume unwavering), "there is no point in trying to convince them otherwise -- as Roger Eden says, their emotional experience is not going to be reversed by our rational explanations. On, NPR, a correspondent wanted to interview a representative of the Roman Catholic church to discuss various issues. The representative had only one condition to grant the interview. She required that the correspondent believes "there is absolute truth and the Pope is the deliverer of that truth." The correspondent responded with "I guess we have nothing to discuss!" And that reminds me of a comment by Boris Sellars: "It doesn't matter what the truth is, it's what people believe." Anyone participating in a hakafot? Jim Harley ....................................................................... From MPrival@aol.comSat Oct 28 09:46:49 1995 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:00:20 -0400 From: MPrival@aol.com s (10/11) into the historical legitimacy of Secular Humanistic Judaism are very important. It would be great if all of us were prepared to explain the points he makes in his note when others ask questions like, "How can you be Jewish without God?" I thought that readers might be interested in how Reform Jews answer the question on the necessity of belief in God. Their "Frequently Asked Questions" page on this issue in the "Reform/Progressive Judaism" listing is, for me anyway, interesting reading. It says that most people often have trouble believing in God, but that the organization of Reform Judaism acts on the assumption that God exists despite the personal beliefs of its members at any given time. Even more interestingly, from our point of view, most of the Reform answer to the question of God consists of a discussion of the fact that the Reform movement recently refused to admit a Humanistic Jewish Congregation (Beth Adam in Cincinnati) on the grounds that the Congregation does not pray to God. Thus, Humanistic Judaism (and Beth Adam is ideologically a Humanistic Jewish congregation, even if they are not affiliated with the Society for Humanistic Judaism) has been the instrument by which Reform Judaism has affirmed its position on God. Mike Prival ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Reform/Progressive FAQ item is shown below, for those who may be interested: Frequently Asked Questions and Answers on Soc.Culture.Jewish Section 18. Reform/Progressive Judaism Subsection 18.3. What is Reform Judaism's position on... Reform's Position On...The necessity of belief in God? (Adapted from Rabbi Eugene Borowitz's Liberal Judaism) Belief in God is not a problem to some people. They simply know that God exists and nothing shakes their faith. Most of us are not like that. We'd like to believe in God, and sometimes think that we do, only to find ourselves questioning again. It is clear that in Judaism, belief in God has not usually meant complete and unwavering certainty. This is demonstrated throughout Torah. In Judaism, faith in God is dynamic; it is not an all-or-nothing, static state of being. So, does Reform require belief in God? There are no ideological tests administered; each person's belief is private. Yet in terms of the movement, Reform believes in God. This belief has been demonstrated from the earliest days of the movement; specifically, the Pittsburgh Platform in 1885 said "We hold that Judaism presents the highest concept of the God-idea as taught in our holy Scriptures." It was reaffirmed in 1937 in the Columbus Platform: "The heart of Judaism and its chief contribution to religion is the doctrine of the One, living God, who rules the world through law and love.". It was reaffirmed yet again in: "The affirmation of God has always been essential to our people's will to survive.". The strength of this conviction at the level of the congregation was confirmed again recently. In 1990, a congregation in Cincinnati Ohio applied for membership in UAHC. This congregation practices "Judaism with a humanistic perspective". It had been briefly involved with the Society for Humanistic Judaism, but had found them to be too atheistic. The congregation sees itself as a Jewish group, but its liturgy deletes any and all mention of God, either in the Hebrew or in English. This liturgy doesn't include Kiddish or Kaddish, Barechu, Shema, Ve'ahavta, Amidah, or Aleinu. Their philosophy doesn't admit of either Covenant or commandments (as demonstrated by their haggadah, which in Echad Mi Yode'a, replaces the traditional "Two tables of the Covenant" with "two people in the Garden of Eden". The responsa committee, in response to this application, denied (although not unanimously) that this congregation was a Reform congregation. Rabbi Gunther Plaut, chair of the committee at the time, wrote: "Persons of varying shadings of belief or unbelief, practice or non-practice, may belong to UAHC congregations as individuals, and we respect their rights. But it is different when they come as a congregation whose declared principles are at fundamental variance with the historic God-orientation of Reform Judaism. ... But should we not open the gates wide enough to admit even such concepts into our fold? Are not diversity and inclusiveness a hallmark of Reform? To this we would reply: yesh gevul, there are limits. Reform Judaism cannot be everything, or it will be nothing. The argument that we ourselves are excluded by the Orthodox and therefore should not keep others out who wish to join us has an attractive sound to it. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, however, we would end up with a Reform Judaism in which "Reform" determines what "Judaism" is and not the other way around." This position was reaffirmed at the UAHC Board of Trustees meeting in 1994, which voted 115-13-4 to reject the application for membership. Note that in neither case was the rejection unanimous. Interested parties issued in the details of both sides of the argument should read the articles in the Winter 1994, Volume 23 Number 2, issue of "Reform Judaism" published by UAHC. ....................................................................... From JERRISA@carleton.eduSat Oct 28 09:46:49 1995 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:54:24 -0500 (CDT) From: JERRISA@carleton.edu To: hj@teleport.com Subject: theism I have been putting of responding to the discussion of god, theism and its relation to humanistic and secular Jews because I new that it was a topic that I feel strongly about. And, being a busy college student, I wanted to find the time that I could concentrate on my addition to the list fully. I regret that I will be mentioning topics that people brought up without directly attributing them to their authors, however the messages have been long deleted from my limited file space. Some people mentioned that the discussion about god within the humanistic and secular Jewish movements is not relevant. I feel that this is completely inaccurate. We live in a theistic world,, come from a incredibly theistic oriented tradition, and as much as we would love to ignore the topic of god in our life, I think it is impossible. Just this morning I was attending a memorial service of a late president of Carleton College, a secular institution, and it was inescapable that the topic of theism is prevalent. At the end of the convocation, the entire audience, stood up in the chapel and sang Lawrence GouldUs favorite hymn from church in his honor. We can not avoid the topic or discussion of god, as the theory of ignoticism would require because we base our beliefs and our traditions and culture from a society of our ancestors that was religiously theistic. Each time I meet someone and attempt to explain the beliefs of humanistic or secular Judaism, wither I or the other person brings up the god issue. I think that Mike Prival is right when he says that when the topic comes up, he states firmly that he is an atheist. I do as well, using a term my brother mentioned to me once, agnostic apathetic, or donUt know, donUt care. Which is what I strongly believe. But in this statement, I am saying that god and theism does not play an important part of my life or my belief system as a humanistic Jew. However, by ignoring the topic of god, I feel that we do not do justice, or give credit to where many of our traditions or beliefs originate. I think that if humanistic and secular Judaism wants to survive and thrive in this world, that we must develop a strong response to theism. This may be our greatest challenge since one of the major tenants of our movement is that we have a wide range of ideas and beliefs represented and that we are able to coexists in this movement and have disparaging ideas on an issue like theism, is one of the movements incredible strengths. -aj 10/13/95 ....................................................................... From jharl@sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.usSat Oct 28 09:46:50 1995 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:54:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "James Harley Jr." To: HJ Host Subject: theism In my curt response to the current God talk on hj, it seems that I left a wrong idea. 1. I firmly believe that we must study god. It is very relevant, both from our history and the world we live in. (We probably study God more than any other group; note study not worship. This forum is not the place for that in my opinion. May be those who need study should establish another forum for in depth study. 2. I firmly believe we must have a "strong response" regarding our position God belief. I have and I also thought as Secular Humanistic Jews that we have a statement (cf. SHJ's _Humanistic Judaism_, volume XXI, Number III-IV.) I'd like to conclude with Salman Rushdie's response to the question by David Frost (26 Nov 1993) "...do you believe there isn't a God, or do you know there isn't a God?" Mr. Rushdie" All I would say is that I have never had a need for God. I would put it that way. I do not need the idea of God in order to explain the world I live in. In my view, I can do without it. If other people feel otherwise, then that's their privilege." Rushdie goes on to tell about growing up in a very religious country and has always "been very, very interested and, in fact, often moved by the great stories, the narratives, the grand narratives of religion." Jim Harley ....................................................................... From lesk@biology.bu.eduSat Oct 28 09:46:50 1995 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:48:44 -0500 From: Les Kaufman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: theism If gods are created by people, then an understanding of these virtual entities is paramount to any search for spiritual fulfillment. There is a necessary shift in emphasis from a deity to a human construct, but this does little to lessen the importance of understanding the latter...why it is continually being created, what purpose it serves, how this purpose might be better served within a rationally consistent framework...how to deal with the side of human nature that is purely emotional, experiential. Les Kaufman ------------------------------ (Posts added 8/96) From: Hans Leander Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: HJ/ Humanism and acceptance of Humanity On Tue, 21 May 1996, Daniel Lieberman wrote: > ... > The concept of Humanistic Judaism is appealing to me. I find that as > it is articulated on this list it leaves very little space for the > majority of Jews and the rest of humanity. > > It seems to me that there needs to be acceptance of the variety of > human experience. I have friends who are believers in God and some > are Christians. Some of these very moral, decent people have > experienced their God directly. I have not had such experience. I do > not reject their experiences. ... > > If we call ourselves humanist I think we should learn to live with the > fact that humans have different realities. It is only by accepting > this and joining with other decent, ethical and moral humans that we > can develop the strength to feel safe in this changing world. > > Dan Lieberman > Sacramento California > I feel a need to explain why I do not accept the experience of religionists (theists). If you can say "I believe in God [my version of God] and therefore I will behave as follows [anybody's guess how they will behave], I am very leery. Such people (at least believe they) MAY do good only because God tells them to. They MAY do good to a fetus while gladly see the mother die. They MAY do good and prevent the use of contraceptives and gladly see millions suffer (the Pope, for instance; no, he is not suffering, others are). The fact is that you don't know from one day to the other what these people will do, unless you have the finger on their pulse and can figure out in advance what position they will take on the next social or political issue. This does not pertain only to fundamentalists, but trickles down or out to most religious people. The saving grace is that so many professing to believe (and I am sure they believe they believe) do not live according to their (leaders') beliefs. If a majority of mankind did, mankind would be done with. I am not particularly scared now, but if I had lived under the Inquisition, I would have been. Fortunately, in our time, we have INFORMATION, and it is heartening to see the resounding failure of the Contract with America, which shows that the average American prefers to live according to human rules rather than supernatural or according to the agents of the supernatural. The Contract with the American Family is another matter. Family is close to the heart of us Jews, but we must (and we do, I am sure) see that the "family values" debate is as false as the "bash the Government" campaign. If the family does not function, the reason is a combination of a changing environment (all adults working, declining real wages, easier to get divorce (but still hard to get get), etc.) and the family (transformation from extended family to nuclear family to one-adult family). To try to fix this by strengthening "family values" (what the heck are they?) is another reason why I think religionists (esp. theists) are unpredictably irrational (not all, I am the first to admit). They are either so desperate that they do not care what harm they inflict, or they are so ignorant that they do not know what harm they inflict, or they are so cynical that they inflict the harm needed to reach their goals. It is time to stop taking the abuse from a group of people that are trying (desperately, ignorantly, cynically) to prevent us from solving the problems of the world in a way that is compatible with human ability and human responsibility. Hans Leander Boca Raton, Florida "Humanistic evolutionary" ------------------------------ From: rongv@netvision.net.il (ron) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 17:01:19 +0300 Subject: HJ/ God In my humble opinion, you guys tend to avoid the most crucial issue: The concept of god as suggsted by the bible was a giant cultural and moral step forward, some 3000 years ago. It was the starting point of western civilization and we as jews should be proud of this major contribution. BUT the concept of a personal god is a groundless false myth, created by wise men who never saw the mountains of the moon and were sure the earth is flat. we don't know much of this world but we know much better than them, and we must free ourselves from their cosmic illusions. The basics of their moral agenda, which god is only its shiny paper wrap , is rooted in our society and will stay so forever, but in the age of reason, its contrary to the dignity of man to accept superstitions as reality. for centuries the paradoxical concept of God was abused by the religious elites all over the world to mislead people, sell them blant lies, take their money and in so many dreadful cases take their lives. Can you imagine the hypothetical "amnesty annual report" on the atrocities caused by the catholic church in the name of this divine perfectly good and moral being ? the unconceivable amount of money and reasources that our interest in this pathetic "imagenery friend" claims, could ,if used for the wealth of mankind, make this world a much better place. 4 milion kids have died of pneumonia alone, in 1995 But we didn't have the money or will to save them. we prefered to waste them on satisfying the endless needs of the crying religous monster. I live in a country where a religous fanatic jew murdered our beloved prime minister(in the name of god off course). Islamic fundamentalist terror makes our life a living hell. The lunatic cruel bloody leaders of iran are using god (allah) as their main weapon in preparing their people for the dark war againt the west. These guys are doing everything they can to have a nucular power. The duty of the humanist, moral freedom and peace searching men and women of this world is to fight them hard now before it will be too late. One way is to shake the foundations of their false hatred and fury. To make it short: We gave God to this world and we should take it back. His ticket is no longer valid. When more and more people all over our planet will understand that god is only a fictional character from an extremely beautiful and deep ancient book, and that it is possible to find meaning in this life without the devine imagined Disneyland in the sky doctrine, the future of our children will be much safer and happier. Ron Guetta, tel aviv ------------------------------ From: bab@optimation.com (Bernie Banet) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:32 WET DST Subject: HJ/ Rightsizing the Cosmos Following up on this suggestion from Ron Guetta in Tel Aviv: >To make it short: We gave God to this world and we should take it back. >His ticket is no longer valid. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Adoshem, Our God, King of the Universe: Since You failed to appear at our recent Board of Directors meeting, I must regretfully deliver this message to You via e-mail. I know that You (more than anyone) understand the difficulties we face in this increasingly competitive environment. As a People, we Jews have had a particularly rough time since our founder, Abraham, first approached you about 4000 years ago with the original covenant, and, of course, in the 3400 years since Moses had those mountaintop meetings with You in the Sinai desert and hammered out your current contract. After anguished discussion, which would have benefitted very much from Your presence, I might add, the Board has decided that the Universe, Humanity, and the Jewish People need to pursue new strategic directions, in keeping with new markets and new technologies. Sadly, since it means the end of our association with You, the Board has decided to replace You as CEO, and to look for new leadership, even though many of us had assumed, frankly, that our long-term relationship with You was carved in stone. We wish You, of course, nothing but the best in Your new endeavors, whatever they may be. Please don't hesitate to call on me if there is anything at all that we can do to assist You in this transition period. Bernard A. Banet Phone: 313 665-7842 Fax: 313 665-7872 838 Heatherway Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-2734 bab@optimation.com ------------------------------ From: Franco Piazzese Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:19:31 +0200 Subject: HJ/ contribution(?!) - --=====================_833015971==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" - --=====================_833015971==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends, thank you very much for your warm welcome. Having read a number of messages I am sure that I have subscribed the right list. I have greatly appreciated the approach by Ron (Tel Aviv, may 24), and so my wife and my son 23 years old. It seems right to me that the People who reduced the numbers of gods to one is now making his second step, to zero! With our great regret this is based on a sound "experimental" evidence... The still little number of declared Humanistic Jews may appear disconcerting. I know of a number of Jews who are not believers, whose convictions are very close or even coincident with those of Humanistic Jews also in Italy (in particular in Torino). But what exactly they should do? Consider that all the Italian Jew Communities are Orthodox; the number of affiliates is about 30.000 or little more---a considerable part being elderly---versus the whole population of Italy of about 60 millions. (Do you know the book by Alexander Stille titled in Italian "Uno su mille"---one on one thousand---referring with some optimism to that ratio?) I hope that the present and future spreading of e-mail will be a powerful aid in sticking together Humanistic Jews in any part of world. Apropos of this I regret the I have seen on the net about nothing about the European Movements based on the same principles. Shalom to everybody, Franco/Falco (Torino, Italy) piazzese@polito.it ------------------------------ From: SVMC08A@prodigy.com (MR ROBERT D WOLFE) Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 08:34:06, -0500 Subject: HJ/ God I enjoyed very much the communications from Bernie Banet and Ron in Tel Aviv on the subject of firing God. However I would like to stress the point that God is not a Jewish invention. God, in the sense of a (usually male) ruler in the sky is a creation of monarchical societies. The concept of God was firmly established in Egyptian society, which was highly monarchical, for a long time before Moses. The God of the Egyptians was believed to have created the world, to rule over it and to judge it much as the God of the Jews was later said to do. So far as I can see, the God of the Jews had only two original features: he didn't want his picture taken and he couldn't stand competitors. These two features, taken together, constitute what is usually called "monotheism", which is said to be a great advance over "polytheism". But in my opinion, the only progressive aspect of Jewish "monotheism" is that it banned the worship of idols, which more often than not bore a close resemblance to ruling class figures. In other words, worshipping idols was like worshipping your boss. It was the ban on the worship of idols which was the most commented on and controversial feature of Jewish religion in antiquity. The fact that the Jews worshipped an invisible, all powerful, all knowing male monarch in the sky was considered no big deal, since everybody else worshipped similar entities. I think that Jews today should be proud that our ancestors fought the good fight against boss worship, but we should not be so quick to claim credit for the invention of God. As the Christians and Muslims have both shown, it is not all that difficult to use the God concept against the Jews. One of the things I hold against orthodox Jews is that by validating the God concept, they are also helping to validate Christianity and Islam. In other words, I too would like to fire God, but I'm not so sure he works for us. Bob Wolfe