What are views of HJ's on intermarriage...more commonly referred to as "intercultural" marriage? Posts here by: Harold Black Adam Chalom Larry Stillman Bobby in Illinois Bert Rothschild Jane Goldhamer Claudio Szwarcfiter Hans Leander ....................................................................... From hb0001@epfl2.epflbalto.orgTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:11:48 -0500 From: HAROLD BLACK To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Intermarriage Someone asked what should we do about intermarriage. My answer is that we can do nothing about intermarriage. If someone wants to do it we have no way of stopping them. We have two choices. We could refuse to have our leaders perform such marraiages and we would lose the people involved with certainty to Judaism. Or we can perform the marriage and keep our doors open and some percentage will decide to be Jewish and become members of our congregations. I don't know if this will keep Jews from disaapearing, but they certainly won't disappear as quickly as they would if we stick up our noses at intermarriage. We cannot guarantee what our children will be. We can only do the best we can and hope. No group is guaranteed existence forever. So far Jews have lasted longer than most groups. So my advice is keep plugging away and hope for the best. You might surprise yourself. Harold Black, Machar, the washington, DC Congregation of HJ ....................................................................... From adam.chalom@yale.eduTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Chalom To: Humanistic Judaism Subject: HJ/ Intermarriage I've been very busy lately, but I wanted to share my personal perspective on this issue. As a young HJ adult who is comitted to the survival of the Jewish people AND an HJ identity, but still planning on getting married and having a family, I have to deal with the possibility of intermarriage in a very real way. My opinion on the subject is this: I feel that, to some extent, individual happiness and satisfaction is more important than maintaining the ethnic purity of the Jewish people. Allow me to explain: 1) You do not have to marry a Jew to raise your children Jewishly. I am so committed to being Jewish that anyone I marry would have to understand that my children will be raised to think of themselves as Jewish (or at least half Jewish) even if she is not. The rationale that allows us to recognize intermarried couples that come to us from elsewhere should apply to our members as well. 2) I've learned from many people's experiences (including those of my parents) that it is hard enough to find someone right with whom to spend your life (or a large portion thereof). If you limit the pool a priori, you have a much lower chance of doing so. 3) If the only means by which the Jewish people will survive in the Diaspora is to be rigidly exclusive of individual happiness if it happens to occur with a non-Jew, then that is an end which is worthless. I guess on this particular issue I'm more of a humanist: I value the individual and their rights and happiness and dignity over this ephemeral means to preserving the Jewish people. I'm more concerned about finding the right PERSON than finding a somewhat compatible JEW. As a friend said to me about her children, I'd be more concerned if I brought home an orthodox Jew than a secular goy. Jewish survival is important. Intermarriage is a reality, but Jewish identity is not exclusively biological. It is inconsistent to promote our Humanism while maintaining an orthodox boundary around our Judaism. I was fortunate to be born a Jew, but I will not hold that against people who were not. Similarly, marrying a Jew, while important to my career plans and my life goals of raising Jewish children in a Jewish family, is not all important. Chances are, to find someone who will understand my committment to Judaism I will end up marrying a Jew anyways (and with a last name of "Chalom" (pronounced Shalom) the kids will have little trouble claiming Jewishness), but I will not count that against anyone else. I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt a personal testimony was in order after all the polemicizing on the topic of intermarriage. For many, it affects their children or grandchildren, but for me, it affects me. Adam Chalom Yale University ....................................................................... ....................................................................... From l.stillman@pgrad.unimelb.edu.auTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:51:35 +1100 From: Larry Stillman To: owner-hj-digest@teleport.com Subject: Intermarriage (again) I am glad that a couple of people have mentioned intermarriage. There is no reason why people of Jewish background should have to go through the torture of trying to find the right partner within the 'group' if that chemistry isn't there, particularly if one's religious identity is well - not too religious. It wasn't there for me, as aside from the usual fights over vacuuming and ironing, it works well otherwise. I now KNOW that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. As humanists, we need to be accepting of all who share our core identity ( scepticism, ignoticism etc, with a range of Jewish ethnic identitities). As a consequence, I'd be as much concerned of junior being involved with a baalat -teshuvah as a fundamentalist Christian - both share beliefs that are antitheitical to my way of living and being, and what I am trying to teach my child. I couldn't sacrifice my freedom and happiness in a free society to become a statistic reflecting the 'preservation' of the Jewish community, as much of the argument seems to be phrased at the moment. Other views? Larry Stillman Melbourne Australia ....................................................................... Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 07:05:01 -0500 From: BobJ2361@aol.com To: adam.chalom@yale.edu, hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Intermarriage You've got some reaseonable ideas here Adam. Our son married a non-Jew, but expected that his children would be brought up Jewish. We ended up changing temples. We now belong to a humanistic congregation because the Rabbi was willing to marry our son and daughter in law. Our daughter in law is the one who looks to see what's going on at temple. She decides to go sometimes without our son. So yes, finding the right person is more important than having the person be Jewish. And who knows it might mean that Judiaism will get another recruit instead of losing one. ....................................................................... Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 07:36:20 -0500 From: BRoths@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ ADAM CHALOM - INTERMARRIAGE In a message dated 96-02-06 20:15:26 EST, you write: >1) You do not have to marry a Jew to raise your children Jewishly. I am >so committed to being Jewish that anyone I marry would have to understand >that my children will be raised to think of themselves as Jewish (or >at least half Jewish) even if she is not. Adam, be very cautious about such. Some years ago a couple divorced and she gained custody of the children. She had converted from Christianity to Judaism, but after the divorce married a Christian man. They both wanted the children to be raised as Christians. The divorced, Jewish father protested and they went to court. The outcome is fuzzy to me - I think the judge said the children should be raised in both faiths. In this era of divorce, if you marry a non-Jew, or even one who converts, make sure there are clear pre-nuptual agreements. ....................................................................... From: "M. Michael/Jane Goldhamer" Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HJ/intercultural marriage Claudio, I took your question re. dilution of Jewish customs and practices to be a reaction to Susan Averbach's report of a wedding between a Jew and an Afro American in which the couple did the seven blessings, broke the glass, and jumped the broom. Extending that further, one of their future children might marry a Hindu, in which case the above two elements plus a Hindu wedding custom might be incorporated into the ceremony, and further diverse practices be brought in with successive generations who want to honor the several traditions that are part of their mixed cultural heritage. Yes, eventually we'd end up with something that didn't much resemble what we call a Jewish wedding. And it would take place between people who didn't much resemble what we think of as traditionally Jewish. But what's the alternative? In the case Susan reported, we might assume that both parties, in this most meaningful ceremony of their lives, wanted to honor their own cultural traditions. (Not that the slave practice of jumping the broom is a widespread practice in African American weddings today, but there's not much that can represent that culture in a wedding ceremony.) They can do what they did, or else one or the other could have given up his or her tradition. The best intercultural marriage is probably one in which each partner learns to be familiar and comfortable with and appreciative of the other partner's culture. This is what we strive for in our group: to welcome non Jewish spouses and help them become familiar with things Jewish, so they can enjoy taking part in our customs. The question of diluting the "Jewishness" of ceremonies is probably an inevitable consequence of the reality of people of different cultures getting together and falling in love. We can't prevent this--so we do our best to adapt in a way that's affirming to everyone. Jane Goldhamer, Humanistic Jews of Greater Portland, OR ....................................................................... From: szwarc@eros.rdc.puc-rio.br (Claudio Szwarcfiter) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:13:06 -0300 Subject: Re: HJ/intercultural marriage Jane, thank you, you grasped exactly what I really meant to say. I just want to make my position clear, and who knows my positions coincides with that of other Humanistic jews. History taught me that independent of supernatural authority man has ultimate responsability of changing the world. This means that I'm not at all fond of praying. I am fond of being Jewish, though, and rabbi Wine's book "Celebration" shows exactly how I can have a Jewish life and be Humanistic at the same time. That's why I like HJ. However, this does not mean that I have to accept dilution of Jewish customs, although I do respect the opinion of people such as Susan Averbach, which see this as positive. Of course carrying out intercultural cerimonies help to prevent some Jews from running away from a Jewish cerimony or "Jewish" life, but at what price? I would like to know the opinion of people on this. I think that living in an environment with mixed cultures is great, but I still cannot personally accept the idea of intercultural weddings and holiday cerimonies. And I think this is not central for HJ, it is the idea of some people who have formulated the basic principals of HJ, and it's open to discussion, since we are not talking about closed divine concepts. I am sure about one thing: nobody can be sure that this would be THE solution for the survival of Judaism, and I particularly think it's not a feasable solution at all. As far as I see it, HJ does not necessarily entail intercultural marriage. Claudio Szwarcfiter Rio de Janeiro, Brazil ....................................................................... From: Hans Leander Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: HJ/intercultural marriage > Claudio et al.: First, HJ is what has been formulated about HJ, whether by leaders or others. Second, yes, it is at the heart of HJ to accept (although not promote) intercultural marriages and related events (wedding and other ceremonies). Third, trying to prevent intercultural ceremonies is doomed. Fourth, trying to prevent intercultural ceremonies is counterproductive. Fifth, if you are really talking only about ceremonies, it is still only a short step to the marriages themselves, since celebrations and rituals carried out by the family will start to mix whether one wants to or not (history bears this out; be borrow from other cultures and we give to other cultures). And from there, the step to humanistic orthodoxy (an orthodoximoron if I ever saw one) is very short. I shiver! Hans Leander Boca Raton, Florida