The question of Jewish identity is tested in a very stark way when we are asked the question, "What is your religion?" The "interesting comment" in the first post by 15 year old Rivka Gates prompted a flood of response which says much about how HJ's view their connection with Judaism as a whole. wh Posts included here by: Rivka Gates (2) Hilary Shemin (2) Jordi Sod Hoffs Judith Seid (2) Walter Hellman (3) Eddy Laurent Alter Roger Eden (2) Bob Wolfe (2) Jane Goldhamer Mike Prival Bert Rothschild (2) Susan Averbach Harold Black Elaine (?) Susan Lerner Larry Stillman John Klein (2) Patty Becker Jan Price Sheldon Schaffer (2) Jean Safar ......................................................................... From RchayaG@aol.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:23:28 -0500 From: RchayaG@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Jewish population Just an interesting comment. In my Bible Lit class at school we have started askong people in the class about there backround. THere were more jews than anything else so far. The catagories were Jewish, atheist,agnostic, Catholic, Protestant and none. My teacher had to add a catgory for me. Rivka Gates ......................................................................... From shas@primenet.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:29:51 -0700 (MST) From: shas To: HJ@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Re: Jewish Population >Just an interesting comment. In my Bible Lit class at school we have started >askong people in the class about there backround. THere were more jews than >anything else so far. The catagories were Jewish, atheist,agnostic, >Catholic, Protestant and none. My teacher had to add a catgory for me. >Rivka Gates > > Dear Friends...This note submitted by Rifka is upsetting to me. I am starting to feel I am not in the right place. My interpretation of Humanistic Judaism (I did not originally come to SECULAR HJ so this may be our difference since I believe Rifka is from CSJO)is that this was a movement that allowed me to maintain a continuity with people of similar heritage though our religious beliefs may be very divergent. I consider myself no less a Jew than an Orthodox Jew or a Lubavitcher. I know we discuss our particular thoughts freely here because this is a forum with that as its purpose. However out in 'Society' I am a JEW and never an OTHER. I am proud to be a Jew and intend to do my part to maintain my connection and stand up and be counted. I work as a Dental Hygienist and see many people every week, every year...Most of course are not Jewish. I don't wear it on my sleeve, but I would venture a majority know I am Jewish. It is really none of their business how I believe exactly, but it is important to me that I am a good person whom they respect and I carry myself in a way that does honor to my background. This means my parents who raised me and my fellow Jews whom I feel I have a place in life to represent. I know this may seem too strong a response to a 15 year old, but I am responding to all of you, not just Rifka. This is an important point especially that it was a 15 year olds response. Is this the direction our younger members are supposed to go? Are we supposed to explain our beliefs to everyone? Is there an attempt to proseletize by sharing our thoughts? I am confused to the direction of this movement. I sent in that article from the Philadelphia Inquirer and nobody really addressed it. What does it mean to our movement that numbers of Jews are dwindling? Are we looking for a way to make it comfortable for unaffiliated to be active or way to encourage a diassociation with other Jews? I welcome your comments. Respectfully, Hillary Yasmer Shemin Scottsdale, Arizona USA ......................................................................... From jordi@mail.internet.com.mxTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:41:15 -0600 From: Jordi Sod Hoffs To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Re: Jewish Population Rivka Gates says: >>Just an interesting comment. In my Bible Lit class at school we have started >>askong people in the class about there backround. THere were more jews than >>anything else so far. The catagories were Jewish, atheist,agnostic, >>Catholic, Protestant and none. My teacher had to add a catgory for me. >>Rivka Gates And Hillary Yasmer comments: >> >> >Dear Friends...This note submitted by Rifka is upsetting to me. I am Agreed, but for different reasons. First of all, I thank Rivka for sharing this with us. However, I believe that the problem lies more in the way the teacher handled it than with HJ. Given the categories given, I would have to choose Jewish, agnostic or atheist, depending on my mood that day. The problem lies in the common misconception that Judaism is solely a religion. I wouldn't read into it the "separatist" aspect that Hillary feels. >starting to feel I am not in the right place. My interpretation of >Humanistic Judaism (I did not originally come to SECULAR HJ so this may be >our difference since I believe Rifka is from CSJO)is that this was a >movement that allowed me to maintain a continuity with people of similar >heritage though our religious beliefs may be very divergent. I consider >myself no less a Jew than an Orthodox Jew or a Lubavitcher. I know we I think that the consensus here is that we are JUST AS Jewish as our religious brethren; no more, no less. Now, they'd disagree in many instances, but that's another story... HJ and CSJO are movements within a greater framework. >discuss our particular thoughts freely here because this is a forum with >that as its purpose. However out in 'Society' I am a JEW and never an OTHER. Again, the problem is mainly pigeonholeing on the part of society. When I had to answer my ethnicity on US forms, I answered "Hispanic", "White", and "Jewish". The US has yet to come to terms with its ethnic diversity. [...] >really none of their business how I believe exactly, but it is important to >me that I am a good person whom they respect and I carry myself in a way >that does honor to my background. This means my parents who raised me and my >fellow Jews whom I feel I have a place in life to represent. I know this may >seem too strong a response to a 15 year old, but I am responding to all of >you, not just Rifka. This is an important point especially that it was a 15 >year olds response. Is this the direction our younger members are supposed >to go? Are we supposed to explain our beliefs to everyone? Is there an >attempt to proseletize >by sharing our thoughts? I am confused to the direction of this movement. As I said above, I've only seen commitment to the Jewish people and its diversity in the movement up to now. REgarding what people have to go through, that's part of growing up. I refused to do my BAr Mitzvah because I did not find the rite meaningful. THis set me apart from most of my Jewish peers, and it's a decision that I've had to live with. At times, it's not easy being a minority (be it a Jew, an agnostic, etc.), and one has to deal with it. There is more than one way to do it; at times, it's better to let things slide. AT MIT, I befriended a wonderful Portuguese cleaning lady. She was always very sweet to me. She even invited me for Thanksgiving when I was lonely! A beautiful person. At one time, she asked me whether I believed in God. I did not want to hurt her feelings, so I assented. At other times, I've expounded my rambling non-theology at great length. The rule of thumb is: is it worthwhile that X knows your beliefs? If so, explain them to X. IF not, pick the category you find more useful. I'd appeciate if Rivka could tell us more about how she felt about the whole thing (If she feels like it!). (rest of post on other topics...ed) ......................................................................... From JudithSeid@aol.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 15:54:36 -0500 From: JudithSeid@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Re:Jewish poplulation I want to respond to Hillary's upset at Rivka needing a special category of her own. Rivka's problem in fitting into the Jewish category was that there was a competing atheist category. Rivka is both a Jew and an atheist. The paradigm set up implied that Jew and atheist were mutually exclusive. Rivka did not say she did not belong in the Jewish category. She said she needed to be in a category that included both. -Judith Seid ......................................................................... ......................................................................... From hellman@teleport.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:25:44 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Rivka's Dilemma (re-post) Note: Apparently the first part of the following message I posted got cut-off. I am re-posting it below. Maybe Rivka could have checked _both_ the Jewish and atheist boxes? I think the point that Hillary was making was that it's pretty pointless to consider SHJ to be a Jewish organization if its members are unable to check "Jewish" as their religion...when asked under appropriate circumstances. I agree with this observation. With regard to the Inquirer article, I think Jane (yes, that was Jane, not Mike) Goldhamer's response was quite to the point. A principle reason why identifying Jews are in sharp decline has to do with the apparent fact that the major Jewish branches are not succeeding in this regard. When people question us, "Can you really be Jewish with beliefs such as yours?" an appropriate response might be "Will there really be any Judaism unless there _are_ beliefs such as ours?" The difficult but significant point that Hillary brought up was done in a respectful, dignified, reasoned manner, and we will be very amiss if we ask such posters to "be quiet." Precisely the opposite is the case if we are to succeed in fleshing out Humanistic Judaism and what it will become. Walter Hellman ......................................................................... From eddy@teaser.frTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:05:29 GMT From: eddy laurent alter To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Re: Re:Jewish, atheist, both... Rivka @skool... At 15:54 04/02/96 -0500, you wrote: >I want to respond to Hillary's upset at Rivka needing a special category of >her own. Rivka's problem in fitting into the Jewish category was that there >was a competing atheist category. Rivka is both a Jew and an atheist. The >paradigm set up implied that Jew and atheist were mutually exclusive. Rivka >did not say she did not belong in the Jewish category. She said she needed >to be in a category that included both. >-Judith Seid exactly, that I'd feel when I red the questions asked from Rivka, at bible class... a new "category" means that you match both words, it's inclusive not exclusive, so be quiet, Hillary... its seems possible too be even a little bit "religious", very Secular an Humanist and stay both too, whith Secular Jews, and all the other Jews... Cultural differencies... It's funny because here, it seems to be the opposite of your side of the sea... 80 to more of 90% of Jews are fully "un-belivers". Just the "juifs laics" are not so well organized than some "traditionalists"... just most of the jews are leftist (it's changing before it was almost all the jews...), radicals, communists, a few socialists (it's growing...), or anarchists... perhaps, 50 to 70% of the non-jewish frenchs are too atheist.. and we are very very very hard shocked, when your democrat president said things like: "god bless america" if one of us did a such thing I think the scandal forces him to dismission... for us too, we can't understand that your bank notes have ' in god we trust" unbeliveable!!!! Ethnic questions are too, fully forbidden... if you ask you can be prosecute and put even in jail... generally nobody can know if you are jewish or not... An other point in the Shamash FAQ it seems that a lot of american Jews are "conservative" or reform (we say for us "liberal"), a few orthodox or secular, a very few feel themselves no more jewish... here it's very different just a very few orthodox (but for the chabad, very easy to see!!!).. 5 to 10 synagogues traditionalist- the best organized( 2% actives, 10% near??) 40 to 80 synagogues conservatives/reform ="liberaux" a few (but very open and active) 5 to 10 synagogues massorti just one american rabbi and 1 community and hundreds of secular association... and hundreds of secular jewish" intellectuals" (alber memmi, jacques attali, edgar morin, alain finkelkraut... or political left leaders: fabius, jack lang, badinter... but only 25 secular associations saying we are SECULAR JEWISH ORGANISATIONS and just a small one whith (half!!) a secular rabbi! only the french Mapam (cercle Bernard Lazare/ hachomer Hatzair) and the Bundists (arbeiter circle, Vladimir Medem) have big centers with a few employes... the biggest files of jewish adresses had all together less than 5 to 10% of all the french Jews'familly... [20 to 30 000 adress for between 500 to 600 000 people (1% of all the french)] Now you know all!!! ......................................................................... From eden@siftac.easynet.co.ukTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:52:08 GMT From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Shallow Western thoughts on Religion Rachel and Rivka aroused some passion! The Japanese amuse themselves by telling all Westerners who ask about Japanese religion that 95% of the country are Buddhist and 95% ar Shinto. It's only because limited Western imaginations can't cope, that we stretch the meaning of religion to include practices such as Buddha and Shinto. Both are Non-theistic, neither exclusive of any other, and the %'s are true. In Japan nobody expects you to tick one box. Deep down, the Western situation gets worse, if you are really American (or British) you go to Church - well you say that you do. People not quite American go somewhere else! The HJ Problem is bound up with this, because Jews are mainly urban and Western, and our expression of being Jewish is through religion - even if we don't beleive. In the American ethnic diversity, it is possible to be Italian-American, but doesn't it pre-suppose being Catholic? Secular Israeli's spend their Friday/Saturday nights at night clubs, where they sing their hearts out with folk lore from 1948 to today. That branch of folk singing where you half close your eyes, throw your hips forward, and give it all you've got. As passionate and energetic, as the most fanatical of religions. And not a minority culture, very large sections of the populations. Our Diaspora problem is that we can't join in, we don't know the words, and we are not part of the events. In the 6 Day War, every family knew someone in the column that got through the Sinai to Sharm-el-Sheik. The song about that is famous still. New songs come out every week, and they are all keen to learn, likewise with Dance, with literature. Do we follow the fortunes of Maccabi or HaPoel in football or basketball (They're quite good at basketball, although a number of really Black Americans have become Jews, and that has improved the game!). In the end Diaspora Jewry make little contribution to this burgeoning culture, and for most of them, can't even participate. Most of the Israeli's would not be able to participate in a synagogue. Do we read modern Jewish literature? (some of us, but most don't! Amos Oz etc.) About the only thing of note that American Jewry has contributed to Israel of late is the import of fascist ideas on the West Bank. So I don't know what the answer is, but we in HJ have to find it, it's early days yet, and there's lots to do, and amongst us are many semi-detached, so producing a well-rounded lively culture is an uphill struggle, and one that increasingly Israeli's don't want to know about, they are divorcing themselves from the Diaspora. I suppose that sometimes the discussion on who we are, seems like fiddling while Rome burns, if it's any comfort, religious Jews do it even more passionately, fiddling that is!. Roger Eden, British Community for HJ ......................................................................... From RchayaG@aol.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:32:14 -0500 From: RchayaG@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ my comment(rivka) It didn't bother me that she had to add a catagory. I'm used to people thinking Jewishness and not believing in a god are incompatable. Also Hillary I really don't understand what the problem was. My teacher didn't kinpw. Also, I didn't say I'm not Jewish I said I was both. I'm kind of confused as to what your objection was. Rivka ......................................................................... From shas@primenet.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:52:49 -0700 (MST) From: shas To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ my comment(rivka) On Feb 3rd, Rifka wrote: >>Just an interesting comment. In my Bible Lit class at school we have started >>askong people in the class about there backround. THere were more jews than >>anything else so far. The catagories were Jewish, atheist,agnostic, >>Catholic, Protestant and none. My teacher had to add a catgory for me. >>Rivka Gates >> >>ON Feb, 8th Rifka wrote: >It didn't bother me that she had to add a catagory. I'm used to people >thinking Jewishness and not believing in a god are incompatable. Also >Hillary I really don't understand what the problem was. My teacher didn't >kinpw. Also, I didn't say I'm not Jewish I said I was both. I'm kind of >confused as to what your objection was. >Rivka Rifka...My understanding of your 1st post was you did not include yourself with other Jews. You did not say that you were placed in a category of BOTH, you said your teacher added a category. I don't want to beat this topic to death, my 'problem' dealt with my reading of YOUR words which seemed to indicate you separate yourself from other Jews. I'm glad you don't. ......................................................................... From hellman@teleport.comTue Mar 19 07:54:27 1996 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:10:49 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Rikva's Dilemma, Part II We have been batting back and forth some very fundamental issues on our list. Mike Prival just brought up another one. Are we getting closer to finding out who we are? There are many complicated and real questions which we never will come to consensus on. But other ones keep popping up and demand some sort of resolution. Rikva's dilemma, to me, brought up one of these. Since the particular situation brought in complexities which somewhat clouded the question, I would like to re-frame it as follows: We often hear a statistic such as Israel or the U.S, has such and such number of Jews. Let us suppose a census is taken, and that the individual data will remain anonymous...to be collected for statistical purposes only. The census question is as follows: "Please check your religion: a. Christian b. Jewish c. Muslim d. other e. none" I would check "Jewish" as I consider myself Jewish and would want this statistic recorded as part of the census...I would be recorded as part of the Jewish population. Are there HJ's who feel this would not be the appropriate response? Or can we reach consensus on this issue? Walter Hellman ......................................................................... ......................................................................... From SVMC08A@prodigy.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:01:48 EST From: MR ROBERT D WOLFE To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Who is a Jew? Apropos of the question of who is a Jew, I am starting to realize something that was not immediately obvious to me. It is that some of the members of SHJ do not consider themselves Jews, but only "humanistic Jews". If they did not belong to SHJ, they would not be Jews at all. These people have a right to their opinion, but I see a danger here. If SHJ is to grow and become a recognized part of the Jewish community, it has to be able to show that it is an authentic Jewish organization. I suggested some time ago that a good way to do this would be to demonstrate a knowledge of Hebrew, but I now see that it is necessary to deal with this question on a deeper level. The clearest proof that someone is Jewish is that they have a feeling of solidarity with other Jews. All Jews, whether religious or secular, ought to have this feeling; but it is especially important for secular Jews to express solidarity with other Jews, since we do not receive the automatic recognition that is accorded religious Jews. I would therefore ask the participants in this list to say: do they feel a part of the Jewish community as a whole or only a part of SHJ? Do they have a feeling of solidarity with all Jews or only with those whose opinions they approve? And if they do feel a sense of community and solidarity with all Jews, then how can SHJ make this feeling clear to others? Is this already being done, or is there a need for a stronger effort in this direction? Bob Wolfe ......................................................................... Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: return To: SVMC08A@prodigy.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Who is a Jew? Bob Wolfe's question about whether humanistic Jews feel a solidarity with all other Jews is an interesting one, with some "on the other hands" for me. I do feel a part of the Jewish community on the whole: I'm on the Board of the Institute for Judaic Studies of the Pacific Northwest. I attend various programs within the community. Our HJ group has a representative on the Community Relations Council of the Jewish Federation. We are among the sponsors for the community-wide Yom HaShoah observance. We participate in JCC programs such as Jewish Book Month and the fall "Apples & Honey" Fair. Etc. I feel a solidarity with the Jewish people in that, when any Jews face an outside threat, I want to come to the rescue in whatever way possible. ON THE OTHER HAND--as an American, I don't feel a solidarity with the religious right who also happen to be Americans. And I don't feel much solidarity with the Jewish religious right, on the same kind of philosophical grounds. I'm more willing to tolerate them as an expression of Judaism, though, than they are to tolerate me. The same questions you ask in your last paragraph, Bob, might also be asked of the haredim. What would THEY answer? And why do we need to "prove" our Jewishness more than they?? Jane Goldhamer, Humanistic Jews of Greater Portland, OR ......................................................................... From MPrival@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:03:54 -0500 From: MPrival@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Who is a Jew? On 3/17/96, Bob Wolfe wrote: >The clearest proof that someone is Jewish is >that they have a feeling of solidarity with other Jews. All Jews, whether >religious or secular, ought to have this feeling; but it is especially >important for secular Jews to express solidarity with other Jews, since we >do not receive the automatic recognition that is accorded religious Jews. > I would therefore ask the participants in this list to say: do they feel >a part of the Jewish community as a whole or only a part of SHJ? Do they >have a feeling of solidarity with all Jews or only with those whose >opinions they approve? There was an interesting article relevant to this point on the front page of the Washington Post on Saturday 3/16/96. It describes the visit of some young people from a Conservative synagogue in Washington, D.C. for a weekend with Hasidic Jews in Boro Park, Brooklyn. While these young people were all impressed by the warmth of the Shabbat and other things they had never experienced before (remember, Conservative Jews are really very liberal, particularly at the synagoge this group comes from), they were all very aware of, and repelled by, the way the Hasidic women were treated. One 12-year-old boy said: "It wasn't equal. I wouldn't want to live my life like that." When the reporter asked him whether he has more in common with the kids he met in Boro Park or with his non-Jewish classmates at school, he responded ambivalently: "I'd probably have to say my friends at school. But I don't know. I couldn't say. Because now (the Hasidic youngsters) are my friends too." I can't agree that this boy's difficulty in feeling closer to the Hasidim than his non-Jewish friends in any way justifies questioning his Jewishness. These kids are representative of the Conservative and Reform Jews I know, and I certainly feel close solidarity with them. These two groups, particularly if added to secular Jews, form the great majority of American Jews. I have to agree with Jane Goldhamer (as I usually do) that the haredim probably feel no solidarity with either Reform or Conservative Jews, and certainly not with us secularists. While I do have a strong reaction if they are attacked (as has happened in Boro Park), their intolerance to others makes them, for me, a foreign and philosophically objectionable group. (I understand that there is a wide diversity among those whom we label as "Orthodox", and many of the so-called "Modern Orthodox" are perfectly reasonable people. My comments relate more to the "Ultra-Orthodox" Hasidim than to the more tolerant among the Orthodox). Once, during a discussion in our group of death and burial procedures, someone began discussing the restrictions put on Jewish cemeteries by Orthodox rules, which would make it impossible for members of many families in our group to be admitted. I said at the time, and I'll say it again: I'd rather be buried with the goyim than with the Orthodox. If Bob Wolfe thinks that makes me less Jewish than I should be, he's entitled to his opinion. Mike Prival ......................................................................... From BRoths@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:03:38 -0500 From: BRoths@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Jewish identity In a message dated 96-03-17 20:54:31 EST, Bob Wolfe wrote: > I would therefore ask the participants in this list to say: do they feel >a part of the Jewish community as a whole or only a part of SHJ? Do they >have a feeling of solidarity with all Jews or only with those whose >opinions they approve? And if they do feel a sense of community and >solidarity with all Jews, then how can SHJ make this feeling clear to >others? Is this already being done, or is there a need for a stronger >effort in this direction? >Bob Wolfe I have always felt Jewish with no place to go because I never had a belief in the supernatural. Once, I thought I'd try Reform Judaism, but they also believe in god, though I was told I didn't have to to be a member. As a result of joining the SHJ, I mark down Jewish on forms, etc. Do I feel solidarity with other Jews? Not all of them. I cannot fathom, and find hard to accept, the orthodox who perpetrate ugly things in the name of "god's word." For example, they insist that a divorce is not complete unless the man gives the woman a get. The ugliness thus perpetrated gets played out on a regular basis, but they, so far, have refused to change it. No, I don't feel as if they and I have much in common. Bert Rothschild ......................................................................... From saverbach@ortho1.ucsf.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 06:56:48 WST From: "Averbach, Susan" To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/Who is a Jew? I'd like to respond to the question of whether or not we as humanistic Jews feel solidarity with all Jews. Our position on conversion which we call adoption is that anyone who identifies with the culture, history, and fate of the Jewish people is a Jew. If this is our belief than, surely, we would ask the same of Jews who are born as Jews. Susan Averbach ......................................................................... From SVMC08A@prodigy.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:35:25 EST From: MR ROBERT D WOLFE To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Haredim I notice that most of the replies to my comments on who is a Jew focused on feelings towards the haredim (extreme orthodox). I too disagree with many of the beliefs and practices of the haredim and I am well aware that many of them do not feel much kinship or solidarity with secular Jews. I think we are fully justified in affirming our views as against theirs and in reproaching them for their lack of fellow feeling with secular Jews. However, I think we also need to recognize that they do make a positive contribution to Jewish life. For one thing they have children, something that many secular Jews do not do. In my opinion it is no small thing to bring Jewish children into the world and raise them in a spirit of positive Jewishness. For another thing they learn Hebrew, again something that many secular Jews do not do. They also keep up a rich but narrow tradition of Jewish scholarship and in their communal life they uphold values of mutual assistance that secular Jews would do well to emulate. I have no wish to glamorize the haredim and I certainly have no intention of becoming one myself; my point is simply that a purely negative attitude towards them seems inappropriate to me. Let me add that I am not only talking about attitudes and beliefs but also feelings. I feel a sense of kinship with the haredim, as well as other Jews, even if they do not feel this sense of kinship with me. I think SHJ as a group would do well to express this same sense of kinship with other Jews, even if it is not always reciprocated. Bob Wolfe ......................................................................... From hb0001@epfl2.epflbalto.org Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:32:15 -0500 From: HAROLD BLACK To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Jewishness I believe that all Jews are one people no matter how they became Jews and how they practice their Judaism. In the United States it does not matter what the Orthox think or practice. Their members like our members join of their own free will. No one can force a ttype of religious practice on anyone else. So if the Orthodox choose to live in a cetain way that is their business. In Israel things are different. There they control many important functions. If I were an Israeli I would fight for religious freedom.But in any event if any branch of Jews is threatened in terms of existence or the right to practice their religion in their own way I would stand shoulder to shoulder. In actual fact I would do this for any religious group. Harold Black, Machar, Washington DC HJ ......................................................................... From ELAINEKAMI@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:34:51 -0500 From: ELAINEKAMI@aol.com To: SVMC08A@prodigy.com Cc: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Who is a Jew? I too am concerned about the need for some of our HJ'ers to separate themselves from the Jewish people. Humanistic Judaism has evolved over the course of time into what it is today. We have lived through a history, culture and civilization that is part of our roots, and even though we reject the theological part of our heritage, I certainly don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is much that we share with all Jews through our history and culture. I feel very strongly that I am a Jew, and that I choose to express my Jewishness through the principles of Humanistic Judaism. I enjoy celebrating holidays with Jews around the world, and if my words are somewhat different -- my connection with the Jewish people holds fast. Although I have a great deal of difficulty with much of the dogma of traditional Judaism -- I still recognize my connectedness. The strength of the Jewish people lies in its diversity. When the Jewish people can come to terms with each other, we will be in a better position to deal with the fundamental rigidness within other religions; e.g. the Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, etc. ......................................................................... From Meydele@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:42:47 -0500 From: Meydele@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/Intro and Who is a Jew? Sholem aleichem allemen! Seeing Zanja's post reminded me that I should introduce myself, even though I have already jumped in to respond to a previous topic. I am an active member of the Sholem Community Organization and the Sholem School in Los Angeles and am in the IISHJ Leadership Program, aiming for a vegvayser/madrikha certification. The question of who is a Jew is a topic of endless discussion for Sholem. Is it the member whose personal background and orientation is as a Mormon who is a lesbian? Is it the midwesterner raised as a Lutheran married to a New York raised Jew who has become our leading playwright for Yiddish-themed plays? Is it the fourth generation Jewish socialist/secularist studying in the IISHJ Leadership program? I say: Yes, Most Assuredly All Are. They have found universal themes and intellectual stimulation in our history and culture, and an emotional home in our community and celebrating the holidays. We all identify with many of the the same aspects of that history and culture; we are all secular and secular humanist Jews together. We teach tolerance and the many diverse ways of expressing our Jewish identity to our kids. We can do no less than practice it ourselves. Factionalization and the demand for philosophical purity (along with political witch-hunting and assimilation)- to be very simplistic- helped the decline in the Jewish secular movement and the ascendency of the religious approach as the more easily recognized means of expressing a Jewish identity. We are most of us not that generationally removed from the shetlech and ghettos where Jewish observance was the virtually unremitting norm. I think that it is very important that we do not allow ourselves to be marginalized and that we participate vocally and actively in "mainstream" Jewish events in our communities. The recognized role of the Sholem Aleichem Club in the Philadelphia Jewish community comes to mind. If we believe in tolerance and diversity among all Jewish people, if we wish to show that there is a way to express your Jewishness that is more expansive and tolerant, that an "assimilated" Jew has some alternative other than sending money donations to the Lubavicher organization (they are, after all, regarded by so many unaffiliated as "real" Jews), then our presence must be seem and heard. I don't have to believe - or even like - the beliefs of others to recognize the common well from which we spring. Americans tend to forget history. Historically, there is no question as to our Jewish roots and the diversity of the Jewish community. Susan Lerner ......................................................................... From eden@siftac.easynet.co.uk Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:44:19 GMT From: Roger Eden To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Who likes the Jews? Whoever we may identify with, and not with; when the chips are down we only have each other. In each country in which Jews find themselves, many feel comfortable, do not experience personal anti-semitism, and have many like minded souls amongst the population as whole, culturally, politically, intellectually. The majority couldn't care what happens to the Jews, and would stand by, even assist in their murder, if it gained them some small advantage, a quieter life, whatever. That is the lesson of WWII. We would be kidding ourselves if we thought that any lessons had been learnt. I may feel much closer to liberal, humanist intellectuals than to Haredi Jews, but in fact I can only really count on other Jews. Spare me the idea that this or that country is different. First and foremost we are Jews, whether we like it or not, we don't do the Choosing, our only choice is whether to take pride in that fact. Roger Eden British Community for HJ ......................................................................... From BRoths@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:19:19 -0500 From: BRoths@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Recent discussions about are we Jewish In the cujrrent Foreward it is reported that some orthodox Rabbi (s) have proposed that Reform Judaism be declared a different religion and lumped with Muslims, etc., but not to be thought Jewish in any real sense. It is pretty clear that they want to destroy any opposition to their madness and wish to totally control Israel. Yes, we are Jewish and can be proud of it. ......................................................................... From l.stillman@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:41:21 +1100 (EST) From: Larry Stillman To: owner-hj-digest@teleport.com Subject: Who is a Jew? A very brief comment from me: philosophically and intellectually, I am quite happy with humanism, but it is very easy to hit my Jewish button. A case in point: we were driving down a street through the main orthodox neighbourhood last Saturday. It was pouring with rain, lots of people were getting soaked, and my wife said : "why aren't they using umbrellas?" Without blinking an eyelid I blurted out "because it's carrying". Rationally and personally, I lead a lifestyle pretty distant from observant Jews. But why do I live near their neighbourhood? Why do I read all the notices from Habad (in Hebrew), left around for young Israeli travellers, inviting them to a seder, and why do I drift over to their table at the community festival. I suppose, in a distant way, the orthodox are my people, that is what I grew up in. As committed humanists and committed orthodox we do share something in common: we believe in something, unlike those who have...well I am not sure what it is, but it must be more than acquisition and consumption. I even went to Purim this year at the local talmud torah (where I went to preschool) and my little boy enjoyed the noise. But there is no obligation for me to believe what they do, nor does it mean I share the same politics with them, that's for sure. ********************** Larry Stillman "mar sharrukin" Melbourne, Australia l.stillman@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au ************************** ......................................................................... From 101333.2634@compuserve.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: 21 Mar 96 12:12:00 EST From: John Klein <101333.2634@compuserve.com> To: HJ Subject: HJ/ Jewish solidarity ? Hi all, Re: Bob Wolfe's questions: << I would therefore ask the participants in this list to say: do they feel a part of the Jewish community as a whole or only a part of SHJ? Do they have a feeling of solidarity with all Jews or only with those whose opinions they approve? And if they do feel a sense of community and solidarity with all Jews, then how can SHJ make this feeling clear to others? Is this already being done, or is there a need for a stronger effort in this direction? >> 1. I would hope that all Jews feel inter-connected, whatever their degree of religious observance or lack of it. As previously discussed in this forum, assimilation into the wider gentile world is not really possible because of anti-semitism, hence we've no alternative but to feel a sense of solidarity with Jews everywhere and to be proud of our secular - Jewish identity. I find it easy to feel an abstract, quasi-mystical connection with fellow Jews everywhere - though in practice, I often think I have nothing at all in common with individual Jews in this country ( England ). I am a stranger among strangers here. For me, the essential point is whether a person is a mentsh or not - their background is relatively unimportant, as long as s/he will respect my HJ values. As regards feeling a kinship with fellow HJ members on e-mail, it often seems that we engage in monologues instead of dialogues and that I wouldn't have all that much in common with most of you either. Maybe I'm also to blame ? ( I fail to understand what the fuss about Seder nights is all about... ) So, should we do more to publicize our HJ movement within the Jewish community ? Of course we should; and for my part, I always mention that I'm a secular HJ whenever I get the chance in Jewish company. Incidentally, I would regard it as a really worthwhile challenge to launch a secular HJ party/movement in Israel. Does anyone know what progress has been made so far in this direction ? What else could we do ? Actions speak louder than words - so, by linking up with fellow humanitarians of all backgrounds, we could help various charities and good causes and in so doing, we would also publicize and benefit our own HJ cause. Regards, John Klein ( London , U.K. ) P.S. - If you want an extra topic for debate, how about the role of HJ "rabbis" - do we regard them as figures of "authority" ? ......................................................................... From Patty_Becker@mts.cc.wayne.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:05:43 -0800 From: Patty_Becker@mts.cc.wayne.edu To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Jewish identity Yes, I do feel a part of the entire Jewish community. I always have, that is, I've identified with other Jews as Jews, but the communal identity was much enhanced during the five years I worked for Jewish Federation in Detroit. The big thing that changed is that, before, I was kind of afraid of the mainstream community. I thought that they had values different from mine, plus they had more money (although of course I knew that wasn't true for all of them), plus I lived in the City of Detroit and they had mostly moved to the suburbs. But, over the years I worked at Federation, my Jewish identity grew stronger, even at the same time that I proudly went forth in that milieu as a humanistic Jew and a member of the Birmingham Temple. The big thing that separates Humanistic Jews from other identified Jews is that we do not believe in God, or at least do not base our lives on the idea of God and adherence to Halacha and rabbinic authority. The big thing that separates us from non-identified Jews (or marginally identified Jews) is that we have found a way of expressing our Jewishness, and enjoying it, without aligning ourselves under rabbinic authority. It's important to recognize that there are, in fact, three categories, not just two: traditional organized and/or observant Jews (from Reform to Orthodox), humanistic and secular Jews, and that large group which is "just Jewish." The organized Jewish community, as represented by Federation, wants all three--believe me. At least, they want to raise money from all of us. Getting proper recognition is, in truth, another story, especially when the rabbis get involved; the Reform and Conservative rabbis are still threatened by us (with a few notable exceptions), while the Orthodox think we live in sin. But so what? I am perfectly comfortable with the adopted SHJ definition of a Jew--any person who considers him/herself Jewish and identifies with the history of the Jewish people. This includes all those people who, not raised Jewish, have become part of our lives, in our groups and congregations, through intermarriage. It's very pleasurable to be Jewish and live the calendar of a secular/humanistic Jew, and all are welcome. Patty Becker ......................................................................... From Jan_Price.PSYCH#u#2@psych.med.umich.edu Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: 22 Mar 1996 08:14:04 -0500 From: Jan Price To: HUMANISTIC JUDIASM Subject: HJ/ Jewish identity Subject: Time:8:03 AM OFFICE MEMO Jewish identity Date:3/22/96 I am a Jew who grew up in a non-affiliated household (although my parents sent my brother to a conservative temple for his bar mitzvah), married a conservative (but mostly non-observant) Jew, sent our daughter to a Hebrew day school for two years (after having converted her to Judiasm by a Conservative Beth Din), and had both of our children bar/bat mitzvahed in a conservative temple. Through all that I felt disoriented and out of place because I never believed in God -- but I always felt Jewish. I have always felt connected to the history and the culture of the Jewish people. I thrill in celebrating Pesach just as my ancestors did thousands of years ago. I love the sight of my Chanukah menorah as I light each candle. I mourn the Jews slaughtered in the Holocaust and anywhere else people were killed for who they were. I could never be anything other than a Jew. My Jewishness is not a manifestation of a belief in an almighty but a connectedness with a history and a culture that is rich and diverse and completely fulfilling without God. ......................................................................... From hellman@teleport.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: Walter Hellman To: hj@teleport.com Cc: GrottaE@aol.com Subject: HJ/ solidarity In response to Bob Wolfe's query on the extent of solidarity with other Jews, I can respond that I consider myself Jewish and that any close acquaintances of mine would also consider me to be Jewish. Hence I associate myself with "Judaism" in general, and my close acquaintances would also make that association. This may sound simple, but I think this "behavioral" self-evaluation, may be one of the most solid ways to determine the extent of our association with Judaism. On a less positive note, the following was posted this month in the lj list (by Emily Grotta, GrottaE@aol.com): >Earlier this week, Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, the head of the Chief Rabbinate's >conversions department, termed reform "a separate religion" and proposed that >Reform Jews in Israel be be legally placed in the same catagory as >Christians, Druse and Muslims. Each of these has its own religious >leadership, recognized as valid under Israeli law, which oversees matters >such as marriage and divorce. As others have said, it's hard to feel solidarity with Jews who do not accept us as Jews at all...and who demonstrate the fundamentalist extremism which is the enemy of a humanistic society. Walter Hellman ......................................................................... From ShSchaffer@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:57:13 -0500 From: ShSchaffer@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Jewish identity (SS, 3/27/96, reference the ongoing discussion stimulated by Bob Wolfe on who or what is a Jew) I hesitate to write for fear I may only be restating points already made by others and because I'm not sure I'm not somewhat confused by the divergent arguments, much of which simultaneously seem to make some sense. I think I know who I am. First and primarily I am a Jew, part of Jewish history and committed to many, but not all Jewish perspectives and committed only to some Jewish practices or traditions. One who was incidentally brought up in the United States and is a veteran citizen of that country. Except for a decision of my parents, I can't forget that I might have been brought up in Lithuania as a Jewish Soviet citizen and would therefore have been a veteran of that ex-country. Even there, despite the secularity and humanistic leanings of my parents, I would have been indelibly nurtured as a Jew, although I am less sure I would have come out alive from the horrendous battles against the Nazi armies. But I also might have been raised as a Jew in South Africa, where several of my mother's brothers settled and raised their families, or similarly in France or England or Israel or Australia, where I have first and second cousins from one or both sides of my parents' families. Send me out into space, onto another habitable planet, I would stand first as Jew, who would reestablish himself as a Jew and only second as one who happened to have been a United States citizen, although I would continue to be highly committed to and molded by much of the constitutionalisms and other experiences or history of the United States, notwithstanding the Supreme Court's decision today about states' rights. As a Jew, I have a deep affinity for and positive (and sometimes negative) reactions to almost all other Jews, even those who espouse religiosity, although I recognize that even the usual Orthodox and the Orthodox fanatics would probably castigate but accept me as I am only because I happen to have been born to a genuine--as they define it--Jewish mother (despite her Mongolian facial features). In accepting me they would of course be upset with my secular and humanistic definitions. They wouldn't say the same for one of my grandsons, whose mother is a non-Jew of Catholic extraction, unless he were to convert according to an Orthodox prescription. Beyond the family attachments and sense of history, I am also and equally, if not more so, a Jew because of my commitment to what I perceive to be the fundamental values and ideologies of Jews or, more precisely, ignostic Secular Humanistic Jews. When I happen to find myself in a synagogue or temple, I also feel an affinity for the Jews there who believe and practice accordingly, or even an affinity for those who don't believe but practice, remembering that until a short time ago, that description applied to me, too. But removed to another planet, my Jewishness would persist in terms of my commitment to the values and ideologies, buttressed by memories and by modified rituals, traditions, and holiday observances. And even the Orthodox accept and revere many of the same values and ideologies, despite their adherence to some archaic if not denigrating concepts, such as those pertaining to the status and role of women in contrast to men and their insistence that Judaism is to be defined and practiced only on their terms. Well, my tribe isn't perfect, but neither am I. I am confident, however, that future history will remold many of the Orthodox according to my definitions, but I realize that I and my Secular Humanistic Jewish types will also continue to be remolded in ways that are unfathomable and maybe even undesirable in some ways. We can't have everything our own way. That, too, is an important part of my Jewishness. Sheldon Schaffer, Birmingham, Alabama ......................................................................... From jeans@crt.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:36:44 GMT From: Jean Safar To: HJ@teleport.com Subject: Re: HJ/ Is Reform a different religion? Hi, I have been following this thread and am a bit puzzled by what I read, so I have few questions. It might seem to be devil's advocate questions, I am on neither camp, yet, I am interested by those questions. Thus spake Mike Prival: > There is really something to be said for this point of view that >Reform is a different religion from Orthodoxy. The central core of >Orthodoxy is the mitsvot (commandments) and the Talmud while at its >inception Reform abandoned the hundreds of ritual commandments and >declared that the basis of Judaism is actually the ethical teachings of the >Prophets (whom the Orthodox always considered almost traif). As I don't deeply know the foundation of the reformed movement, the question that comes to my mind are: - Does the reform movement believe in the Thorah to have been revealed? (which constitutes the central core of othodoxy in my opinion!) - If yes, how does it make up for not following what is in the revealed law - or of course interpreted by authorities as being such? - If not, well, that's what is puzzling, since it would deny the basis of Judaism (as a religion). >The >philosophical divide between Orthodoxy and classical Reform is huge >enough, in my view, to classify them as separate religions. > As Eddy points out, the major link between Orthodoxy and Reform >is that they are both practiced by Jews--members of the Jewish "nation". I might be playing on words but it seems to me that here, you avoid the major problem which is "who is Jewish". There seems to be a Legal version that is defined by the halakhah. Now, if one thinks he is Jew whatever the "law' says causes a fundamental problem since it would mean you would like to be accepted by a group that essentially does not recongnize you as its member. My question is then, what if a group now comes and claim they are yet another kind of Judaism? What is the answer, yes in every case? Who is to judge of the validity of such a claim? After all, that happened before. >Similarly, Secular Humanistic Judaism is another Jewish religion different >at its philosophical core from both Orthodoxy and Reform. In fact, I >sometimes cite the enormous difference between the religion called >"Orthodox Judaism" and the religion called "Reform Judaism" to help me >explain to people how our Secular Humanistic Judaism can be a legitimate >form of Judaism--remembering that Judaism is defined as the (or a) >religion of the Jewish people, not the other way around. Here again you seem to me to be circling back by not defining the term "Jewish" which I think is at the heart of your argument. How do you define the Jewish People then? > .... I would think this is not an easy question, some people have claimed the un-bridgeability of Enlightened Judaism and Orthodox Judaism, at the very least it makes life difficult. Just my 2 cents. Cheers, (Jean Safar) ......................................................................... From 101333.2634@compuserve.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: 28 Mar 96 09:09:19 EST From: John Klein <101333.2634@compuserve.com> To: HJ Subject: HJ/ Jewish identity Hi folks, On Jean Safar's question: who and how - to define Jewish identity?... Funny how we always end up with this question of Jewishness. Like Jackie Mason says, you don't have Greeks or Frenchmen endlessly asking themselves, who/what is Greek or French ? 1. Eddy Alter correctly defined being Jewish as a nationality, or in other words, our birthright - ( "natio" = birth in Latin ). 2. Who gets to decide on Jewish status ? On the positive side, it's anyone who considers him/herself a Jew. Looked at negatively, it's the anti-semites... Why worry about masses of people wanting to call themselves Jewish ? It'll never happen. Only in our most recent history, with the latest Soviet aliya to Israel, have we had to face this phenomenon that a sizeable proportion of immigrants are not strictly ( i.e. Halachically ) Jewish, but Israel has accepted them in spite of this. In a generation or two, they'll be considered fully Jewish - and even if they leave the country and marry out, they will, hopefully retain some spark of sympathy for the Jewish people and an understanding of Jewish ethics that can be passed on to their children. Anyone who agrees to share the culture, the ethics and the fate of the Jewish people is welcome to join us. It would be nice too, if we could "convert " some Reform / Progressive Rabbis over to our secular HJ movement and then maybe they would bring with them large numbers of their congregations. We don't have a religion as such - it's more a way of life, I believe. In essence, religious Jews believe that God created man, whereas we SHJ's believe it was the other way round; however, both groups can agree on the 10 Commandments, for a start. Reform Jews can speak for themselves - ( but not on this mailing-list, please ; - ) Finally, I agree completely with Mike Prival that we need more leaders ( lay or rabbinic ) and Jewish personalities who will inspire and motivate the many unaffiliated and secular Jews to return to their Jewish roots and celebrate within a positive, secular-humanistic framework. A Happy (secular) Pesach to all ! John Klein ( London, U.K. ) ......................................................................... From JudithSeid@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:15:51 -0500 From: JudithSeid@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ Re: separate religion It is perfectly true,a s Rabbi Rosen says, that Reform is a "separate religion" from Orthodoxy. It is clear from this entire discussion that Judaism is not "a" religion and that it is folly for us or any Jew to try to define it this way. Folks, Rosen is on *our* side in this battle - he just doesn't know it. -Judith Seid ......................................................................... From ShSchaffer@aol.com Sun Apr 28 14:31:48 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:08:19 -0500 From: ShSchaffer@aol.com To: hj@teleport.com Subject: HJ/ OngoingDiscussion:Jews,Religion (SS to hj list, 3/28/96, reference Hellman, Laurent, Prival comments, v2n34: Ongoing Discussion--Jews, Religion) Isn't there usually at least one bright side to most adversity? A bad cold, not flu, has discomfitted me this past week, but it at least left me free to surf the net. Maybe I brought the cold back from that stimulating evening I spent in D. C. last Friday night with Mike Prival's book-reading shj cohorts. My wife and I really enjoyed the visit, Mike. Thanks again. Hellman's mention of R. Rosen's idea about a separate religion for Reform and Laurent's idea about nationality and Prival's acceptance of the new religion thesis: Why get upset about every nutty idea that a fellow Jew voices and why rely on dubious academic distinctions? The important point is not to fall into the trap set by the deity believers. Judaism is a cultural phenomenon first and foremost, which encompasses religious, national, and even ethnic, including behvioral, variations, although for a couple of thousand years until recent times it was heavily defined with a religious underpinning. The successful rise of non-Orthodox religious thinking earlier in the last one or two centuries and the rise of ignostic secular humanistic thinking within Judaism both document the diversity that has always been present in Jewish thinking and behavior and legitimize the broad cultural, rather than the narrow religious, characterization. I was almost prompted to suggest that the same characterizations might be applied to Christianity, what with it different sects, but I'm not sure about that. After all, the most basic underpinning in that phenomenon, as I understand it, is the neo-pagan acceptance of the divinity of an entity, an ancient Jew, which/who yields the path to ultimate salvation. In Judaism, the path, at least contemporary path, to salvation is in our own ethical insight and present behavior in regard to other humans and the total environment around us. Even the ultra Orthodox accept that. But they add some behavioral strictures, including prayer, which some are prepared to use as the ultimate in definition. Oh, well...Again, why fall into the trap they set? Sheldon Schaffer, Birmingham, Alabama end of file