What about those who call themselves "Messianic Jews?" Can one believe in Jesus as the supernatural Messiah and still be Jewish because he/she says so? Posts here by: Bert Rothschild (2) Walter Hellman (2) Jane Goldhamer (2) Joel Conn Hans Leander (2) Richard Sherman Roger Eden Alan Young (2) ....................................................................... From: BRoths@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:21:36 -0400 Subject: HJ/ Messianic Jews and HJ You may know that Messianic Judaism is growing, and of course creating consternation. My first contact with them, many years ago, occured when the institution I worked for put on monthly presentations by different religious groups. When it came time to present Judaism, they (ignorantly) chose a Messianic group. I saw people who could have been my grandparents, my parents, uncles, neices, etc., babbling on about Christ. I was indignant and chastised them for not being Jews and chastised the person who invited them. Through the years I have been reading more and more about them. Most recently, they gave money to plant trees in Israel. The money was accepted, but because of thousands of complaints, it was returned. The agency accepting the money apologized for its mistake. What is an appropriate stance for HJ re Messianic Jews? They are, after all, engaged in a religious difference with mainstream Judaism. If we reject that they are Jews, then we have taken a stance in a religious battle in favor of the notion that religion is an important part in identifying who is Jewish. If we accept a basic tenet of HJ, that we are a nation, and if we are a nation how can we reject a group that has its own version of religion? I'd appreciate some feedback on this perplexing issue. Bertram Rothschild ....................................................................... From: Walter Hellman Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: HJ/ Messianic Jews and HJ I don't have much trouble with this issue. Of course, belief in Jesus as son of God is antithetical to traditional Judaism. But Humanistic Jews have an even stronger reason to reject Messianic beliefs; they involve the supernatural son of a supernatural father. Enough said? Walter Hellman hellman@teleport.com Internet Public Access User Hillsboro, Oregon USA ....................................................................... ------------------------------ From: "M. Michael/Jane Goldhamer" Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 19:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HJ/ Messianic Jews and HJ Bertram Rothschild asked for some feedback on this perplexing issue. Personally, I think Rabbi Sherwin Wine expressed a rational approach in his Responsa in the Spring 1993 issue of the journal, Humanistic Judaism: Few issues in Jewish life around Jewish emotion more than the proselytizing activity of Jews for Jesus. After centuries of Christian persecution and oppression, which left powerful memories of aggressive missionary activity and forced conversions, our view of Jewish converts to Christianity (as Messianic Jews are often regarded) tends to be less than friendly. Many Jews see them as traitors and turncoats, betrayers of our people, consorters with our historic enemies, unconscionable subverters of Jewish survival in the century of the Holocaust. Almost universally, Jewish organizations refuse Jewish status to Messianic Jews. The Israeli Supreme Court, in a recent, much-publicized decision, denied them the status of Jews, a decision that runs counter to the principles of both Orthodoxy and Zionism, Rabbinic Judaism maintains that the children of Jewish mothers are Jews, regardless of their religious beliefs; Jewish identity is ethnic and "eternal." Zionism maintains that Jewish identity is national, not religious; even atheists, practitioners of yoga, and believers in reincarnation and astrology are Jews so long as they identify with andj participate in Jewish national aspirations. (Ironically, Messianic Jews, who are rejected as Jews, have a stronger belief in the validity and authority of the Torah and theological Judaism than do secularists who are accepted as Jews.) The decision to reject Messianic Jews is not a matter of principle. It is an act of anger and spite. Once belief is ruled out as the criterion of Jewishness, then singling out messianic beliefs as a sign of non-Jewishness is invalid. The criterion for Jewish identity (as established by the International Federation of Secular Humanistic Jews in Brussels in 1988) is the willingness to identify with the history, culture and fate of the Jewish people. Messianic Jews identify with that history, practice that culture, and accept the burdens of the Jewish fate. Why should people who actively desire to identify with the history, fate, and culture of the Jewish people be rejected as Jews when the most wild-eyed, New Age hippie with minimal interest in Jewishness retains Jewish identity? From a Humanistic Jewishj point of view, believing that Jesus is the Messiah is no more offensive than believing that the Lubavitcher rebbe is the Messiah. If we are not prepared to exclude "errant" Lubavitchers, then why exclude "errant" believers in Jesus? We, as Humanistic Jews, would prefer that Jews be rational and nonmessianic. But, if they choose to be messianic, we are not going to engage in the absurd game of choosing "kosher" messiahs over "non-kosher" messiahs. Rabbi Akiba believed that Bar Kokhba was the Messiah. Did Akiba thereby cease to be a Jew? Thousands of Jews in the seventeenth century believed that Shabbatai Zevi was the Messiah. Did they, too, stop being Jews? Why pick on Jesus? After all, we cannot have our cake and eat it too. We cannot claim at interfaith banquets that Jesus was a Jew and simultaneously deny the Jewish identity of born Jews who want to be Jews and who choose Jesus as their savior. From a Humanistic Jewish perspective, all messiahs are ridiculous. But being ridiculous does not disqualify a person from being a Jew. Judaism is a pluralistic civilization. It can accommodate theists and atheists, mystics and rationalists, halakhists and individualists, devotees of the rebbe as well as devotees of Jesus. Messianic Jews are Jews, even if their belief system may be offensive to us. They are entitled to the privileges of Jews under the Law of Return. They are entitled to participate in the deliberations of Jewish communal bodies so long as they are not seeking to proselytize. Gentile Christians and not interested in Jewish identity. They are not interested in celebrating Jewish holidays, even from a messianic point of view. They are not interested in participating in Jewish culture or in identifying with the Jewish historical experience. Gentile Christians participate only in Christian culture. Messianic Jews have chosen to participate in Jewish culture as their primary culture. Messianic Jews are very far from Humanistic Jews in their belief system. But, like the Lubavitchers (who are almost equally as distant), they share with us a commitment to the survival of the Jewish people. - --Sherwin T. Wine Jane Goldhamer, Humanistic Jews of Greater Portland, OR ....................................................................... From: The Conn Family Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:30:13 +0100 Subject: HJ/ Messianic Judaism Re: the current discussion on the HJ relationship to Messianic Judaism My interest in HJ is as a leader in a pluralist Zionist youth movement in the UK (Federation of Zionist Youth) and one of the organisers of our fledgling secular humanist option. Our movements discussions on the future of pluralism in the movement often arise out of a discomfort with the secular services on a Saturday morning (which run concurrently with Orthodox, Conservative and Reform services). Many try to push the idea that if we are truly pluralist then if we accept a form of Judaism that removes God then surely we should accept one that accepts Jesus. The desired effect is not to have a Messianic Jewish service (as we would all find that unacceptable) but to show up the "idiocy" of having a secular humanist service. I feel extremely easy with having HJ but no Jews for Jesus. My reasons are as follows (I'd like to stress at this point that my movement is trying to find its own Zionist path with HJ and we do not accept everything from the Sherman Wine school of thought, although we do use a fair amount of materials from that form of HJ): 1) Zionism, and HJ, looks at Jews as a nation. Thus a belief in God is not needed as a nation is a secular concept. The cultural identity of the Jewish nation can survive without the theistic sections but whether it can survive with new, different Gods is another matter. Although most national identities can include people of different religious groups, it is unclear whether Judaism can do so to such a degree. I feel, as a Zionist, one should follow the example of Israel and her courts which accept secular and theistic Jews of all forms but not those who are halakhically Jewish but have gone into a different religion. As in the case of Brother Daniel, if another religion accepts you as one of them, you are no longer a Jew for the purposes of the Law of Return. No one else thinks of HJ'ers as "one of them" but Christians think of Messianic Jews as a form of Christian. This leads on to... 2) HJ is a variation on the theme of Judaism. Messianic Judaism, especially that pushed by Jews for Jesus, is a form of Christian outreach, promoted by those who are trying to recruit Jews to Christianity by the back door. Some forms of Messianic Jews do look to Judaism first and try and graft a belief in Jesus on to it. This is much more like the sort of belief Rabbi Akiva had over Bar Kochba but that never led to Akiva being accepted into another religion. Akiva is closer still to the Lubavitch. Although I find the Chabad idea of Schneerson (and Akiva over Bar Kochba) unsettling, it is not the same as accepting someone else's Messiah/ God. Also, all other forms of modern Judaism developed from the root of Judaism with modern, secular influences. Messianic Judaism has developed from Judaism with an alien religious influence. 3) If Messianic Jews are Jews, they are only so much as Samaritans are. Every Jew, from Satmar to HJ is from a Pharisitic root. We have no Saducees, Zealots or Essenes anymore (although certain fringe elements may like to resurrect some of the more violent ideas). Messianic Jews are the theological descendants of the Nazarines, who have not been regarded as "Jews" since ancient times and are not "Jews" like us. They have no place in our culture and as much place in our nation as the Samaritans, who share many of the Jewish rituals and live in Israel but are not regarded as Jews (except by themselves). These are my personal beliefs and created by a specific, hypothetical situation where a Messianic Jew would wish to join my movement and start their own Shabbat service. I, and my movement, would welcome any feedback on the subject or my ideas. Yours, Joel Conn Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ From: Hans Leander Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HJ/ Who is a Jew? To establish whether a messianic Jew is a Jew or not, we humanistic Jews can go to the declaration titled "Who is a Jew?", adopted by the International Federation of Secular Humanistic Jews in Brussels, Belgium, on October 1, 1988. It reads: . . . a Jew is a person of Jewish descent or any person who declares himself or herself to be a Jew and who identifies with the history, ethical values, culture, civilization, community, and fate of the Jewish people. The question of whether a messianic Jew is really a Jew would then be answered by deciding if a messianic Jew is of Jewish descent or if he or she declares himself or herself to be a Jew and identifies with the history, ethical values, culture, civilization, community, and fate of the Jewish people. - ------ Having said that, I would like to point out some serious problems with the IFSHJ definition, problems that render it practically useless. Let's start with "A person is a Jew if he or she is of Jewish descent." One now has to establish whether the person in question has Jewish ancestors. But for each ancestor found, it has to be established if that ancestor has Jewish ancestors, until one comes to the earliest identifiable ancestor, at which point one realizes that one has to have another criterion for Jewishness than ancestor. "Who declare himself or herself to be a Jew and ..." Let us dismiss this part immediately, since it contains the word "Jew", which is what we are trying to define. "A Jew is a person who say he or she is a Jew"; it just does not work. Left is "A Jew is a person who identifies with [a number of characteristics -- ethical values, culture, etc.] of the Jewish people." But this does not work either, because the only thing we know, from this definition, of the characteristics in question is that they are characteristics of "the Jewish people." The question now becomes, what is/are the history, ethical values, culture, civilization, community of the Jewish people? (It should be noted here that the Jewish people is "defined" by its history, ethical values, culture, civilization and perhaps other characteristics.) It should be clear then, that we cannot decide whether a person is a Jew based on the IFSHJ declaration (definition), because to do so, we need a definition of the Jewish people, that is, of the characteristics that "define" the people called Jews. And even then, one question remains: how many and which of these characteristics must an individual have to be counted as part of the Jewish people, that is, to be a Jew? PS. While the above is seriously meant, it is also a coverup for the fact that I know next to nothing about Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus. Where on the net can one find information on their relationship to and differences with Judaism? Hans Leander Boca Raton, Florida hleander@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ....................................................................... From: Richard Sherman Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: HJ/ Messianic Judaism Shalom, I think that Joel Conn makes an excellent case for the distinction between hj and the messianic Jewish movement. I would add the following: - --We need not be so defensive about our secular humanistic Judaism that we accept groups such as the Hebrew Christians on a par with other Jews. We need to view our movement as 'mainstream' Judaism and present ourselves in that light if we are to go beyond marginal boundaries. - --IMHO, the followers of Shabbtai and the Lubabitcher rabbi were simply deluded; messianic followers may also be deluded but they are first and foremost, intellectually dishonset. People with beliefs parallel to theirs were given a designation some 2000 years ago: Christians. Best regards, Richard Sherman Port Hueneme, California ....................................................................... From: eden@siftac.easynet.co.uk (Roger Eden) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:30:22 +0100 Subject: HJ/ Christian Jews? Suppose one of us fell in love with an Afro-Caribbean, married and immersed ourselves totally in their community, would that make us black? Our children might be, and our grandchildren could be considered black. In what way does identifying with a culture, change your ethnicity? In HJ we are very welcoming, does it matter whether non-Jews receive some hechsher (certificate of kashrut) isn't it enough that they are completely part of our community, and their children are Jews. Personally it doesn't concern me how Messianic people think of themselves, the idea is so absurd. I agree that some of them might be Jews, but that doesn't alter my opinion, and they are the least likely constituency for HJ, lets worry about the mainstream of Jews. It's the Law of Return, our own HJ definition of Jews, and our HJ view of what it means to identify with our past, that needs examination. Roger Eden eden@siftac.easynet.co.uk ....................................................................... From: RQHQ47A@prodigy.com ( ALAN YOUNG) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:51:08, -0500 Subject: HJ/ messianism noch-a-mol >Messianic Jews are Jews, even if their belief system may be offensive to us.< No, they're not. They are goyim, and their agenda is not benign. Beware. Alan Young rqhq47a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ ....................................................................... From: RQHQ47A@prodigy.com ( ALAN YOUNG) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:51:12, -0500 Subject: HJ/ "messianic Jews" >>What is an appropriate stance for HJ re Messianic Jews?<< Messianic Jews are goyim. Their goal is to convert Jews to Christianity. The idea of "Messianism" is a smokescreen to hide their agenda. If argument fails to dissuade them, allow me to suggest a balled fist applied smartly to the jaw. Your apikoras in residence, Alan Young rqhq47a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ ....................................................................... From: "M. Michael/Jane Goldhamer" Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HJ/ Unitarian Universalists Hans asked if we can speak to the number of Jews who are Unitarian Universalists. Mike and I are members in a small U-U Fellowship whose 1995 roster lists 230 individuals. Of these, I know that 20 (8.7%) are Jews (including the Goldhamers). Of these, 10 are in intercultural marriages, 5 are single, widowed or divorced women, and 5 are in marriages of 2 Jews. (3 marriages, but one husband goes to the traditional synagogue.) When we were looking for candidates to start a HJ community in Portland, I approached all of the "Jewnitarians" I know. Some said flat out that they weren't interested: they'd put their Jewishness behind them. A few were interested enough to subscribe to the newsletter, but didn't come to anything and eventually didn't re-subscribe. Now and then one or two resurface with a twinge of nostalgia and come to our Seder or a HIgh Holiday service. (Since Unitarians believe that there is, at the most, one god, we're the only form of Judaism that would appeal to them.) But one couple--wife Jewish--have their 3 kids in our children's educ. program and are members of HJGP. After they participated on a panel on intermarriage that was one of our programs (and a good one!), they said they'd decided to raise their children as Jews. And the father is an enthusiastic participant! They haven't left the U-U Fellowship (neither have we) because it's made up of a bunch of real nice people and has SOME good programs, but their main allegiance is with HJGP. Yes, we can speak to the Jewish Unitarians. Most of them may not listen, but it's a field that shouldn't go uncultivated. One family out of 18 is worth the effort! Jane Goldhamer, Humanistic Jews of Greater Portland, OR ....................................................................... From: Hans Leander Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HJ/ Messianic Jews Most mention I have heard of Messianic Jews (often used as synonymous with Jews for Jesus) outside this list have been in varying degree of contempt. It bothers me, and it was this bother that made me ask, with not too obvious irony, whether we can speak to Unitarian Universalists, since I think I understand that the UU background is Christian (someone said that UU is to Christians what HJ is to religious Jews). It strikes me as likely that Jews for Jesus must be quite like the first Christians -- Jewish to the bone, just thinking that Messiah has finally come. As time went by, two things changed: the Gentiles took over and Christianity change dramatically. So when we look at Messianic Jews today, we view them against the background of our knowledge of nearly two thousand years of Christianity. I don't know what the JfJ agenda is, nor do I know much else about them, so if someone has anything in brief that could be put on this list, I, and probably quite a few more, would be grateful. Hans Leander Boca Raton, Florida hleander@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ....................................................................... From: Walter Hellman Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: HJ/ Messianic Jews Hello All, Here is a belief set of a Philadelphia congregation of "Messianic Jews" which I have lifted from the web. They say in their introduction that they are one of the oldest congregations in the country. Walter Hellman .......................................................................... > > > Congregation Beth Yeshua > > What does Congregation Beth Yeshua believe? We stand by these basic > Biblical truths: > > We believe in one G-d as declared in the Sh'ma (Deut. 6:4), who is > Echad (a compound unity) and eternally existent in three persons: G-d, > the Father, G-d, the Son, and G-d, the Holy Spirit (Ruach > HaKodesh)(Is. 48:16-17, Gen 1:1, Ex. 3:6, Eph. 4:4-6). > > We believe in Messiah Yeshua's (Jesus) deity (Is. 9:6, John 1:1,4), > His virgin birth (Is. 7:14), His sinless life, His atoning death (Is. > 53, Ps. 22), His bodily resurrection, His ascension, and His future > return in power and glory. > > We believe that the Bible, consisting of the Tanach (Old Covenant > Scriptures) and the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant Scriptures), is the > inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of G-d (Ps 119:89, Prov. > 30:5-6, 2Tim. 3:16-17). > > We believe in G-d's eternal covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. > We, therefore, stand with and support the Jewish people and the State > of Israel and hold fast to the Biblical heritage of our forefathers. > > Questions? Ask us at [1]info@cby.org > > Return to the[2]CBY Home Page > > References > > 1. mailto:info@cby.org > 2. http://www.cby.org/index.htm > ............................................................................ hellman@teleport.com Internet Public Access User Hillsboro, Oregon USA ....................................................................... ------------------------------ From: avr@mttec.mt.att.com (Adam V Reed +1 +1 908 957 6166) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 22:55:37 EDT Subject: HJ/ Messianic Jews >From: Hans Leander >It strikes me as likely that Jews for Jesus must be quite like the first >Christians -- Jewish to the bone, just thinking that Messiah has finally >come. Fat chance. JfJ recently built their world headquarters in Orangeburg, NY, across the street from where my cousins - whom I often visit - live. They are Fundamentalist Protestant Christian missionaries, selling fundamentalist Christianity to Jews who have a psychological need for a credal religion. Very few JfJs are themselves converts from Judaism; the converts they recruit are strongly encouraged to join regular Protestant churches, since the intensive study of Jewish religion, needed by missionaries for their work, might lead new converts to go back to Judaism. The missionaries like to use Jewish names, sometimes obtained from a remote Jewish ancestor, more often by filing for a state form that "Jack Hawkins is authorized to do business as Jonah Horowitz". Judaism, even in its most primitive Orthodox forms, is an ethical religion which sometimes (for the Orthodox, usually) uses the notion of a God to motivate ethical behavior. Christianity, on the other hand, is a credal (belief-based) religion with some minimal ethical requirements (called "works") tacked-on. An agnostic who accepted "Pascal's wager", acting on the possibility, however improbable, that there might be a God, could be a perfectly Kosher Orthodox Jew. All Christians, on the other hand, feel that an Agnostic cannot be simultaneously a Christian - the lack of faith disqualifies him. UUs have crossed the line back from credal to ethical religion, which makes them - in theory if not history - closer to Judaism than to Christianity. AdamReed@Bell-Labs.com ------------------------------ ....................................................................... From: BRoths@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 07:16:29 -0400 Subject: Re: HJ/ Messianic Jews and HJ Walter, of course we reject magical explanations of the universe, so we don't accept the religious explanations of the rabbis, etc. But, we can still accept people as Jews (or can we?) regardless of the kind of magic they believe in. If Rabbi Wine is right, we are a nation, not a religion. From: BRoths@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 07:07:14 -0400 Subject: HJ/ Messianic Jews This is an article I wrote for the news letter of the Colorado Society of Humanistic Judaism. Many years ago, when I worked at the Ft. Logan Mental Health Center, to foster religious understanding they invited different religions to present about themselves to staff and patients. I dropped by to hear what my fellow Jews had to say - and heard about Messianic Judaism. (When I was at school in Florida, there was an advertisement: "Hear The Jew Preach Christ," but that doesn't count.) Afterward, I challenged their Jewishness and learned that their credentials were as good as mine, but they had "realized" that Jesus was the Messiah after all. They invited me to join, but I said no thanks and urged the Ft. Logan folks to invite real Jews next time. Some years later, wandering in Stapleton airport, I spotted a table with a sign that said, "Jews For Jesus." Again I was bemused. More of this stuff? They started to explain to me how the Torah proved that Jesus was the Messiah, but my eyes glazed over and I wandered away. Just another oddment in life's vicissitudes! Now I discover (Jewish Monthly, June 1995) there are twenty Messianic Synagogues in Florida including Temple Aron Kodesh, which has 500 members. Can you believe it, so many Jews who accept Christ as their savior? And the kicker is that it is the elderly who are joining. We could reasonably assume that it is the restive young who might find attraction in such an oxymoronic idea but it is grandmothers and grandfathers who have found something in accepting Jesus. It has not been simple for Jews to make the transition to worshipping Jesus - so hisname transforms into Yeshua (A nice Jewish name). The New Testament is the Brit Hadasha (the New Covenant), Mary is now Miriam, the disciples are the talmidim (students) and Yeshua was not crucified, he was sacrificed on a tree. The transformation of the names was a deliberate maneuver, part of a wider effort to make it palatable to Jews. In the Messianic Times their stated purpose is ". . . to evangelize and disciple Jewish people around the world through the most effective and creative ways possible. Our priority is to establish local, indigenous messianic congregations that will nurture new believers, bring them to maturity, and leave a continuing witness for Jewish evangelism." They spend over $100 million a year to Christianize you and me; Jews for Jesus alone spent $9 million. Hoo boy, are we a valuable commodity, or what? Hey, guys, give me the cash directly, and maybe I'll consider it. Maybe. The Messianic Jews do effective outreach to people who are vulnerable to their blandishments, but why is it the elderly who seem most attracted? The article suggested that the aging Jews in Florida, isolated and lonely, cut off from their roots in the Northeast, easily gravitate to those who take special interest in them. This is insufficient understanding. Is it not a boast that wherever a Jew goes, he/she can find welcome in a Synagogue? Somehow, these elders are not part of that tradition. Two factors seem significant. First, keep in mind that when they were young, modernism and socialism were still the hope of the future - and both challenged religion. It was a "scientific" twist on earlier humanism - the new human being had no need for the mythology of god. Second, they were adolescents and young adults during the Holocaust. Already growing up in a social context that challenged belief, the slaughter of their loved ones faced them with a stark question. We, the chosen people, were chosen for . . . Hitler? Belief was hard when god did not listen. Even now some Rabbis dare to tell us that it was all because we had sinned! With ties to religious Judaism strained, yet longing to remain Jewish it was easy for them to follow the old dictum: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em (In fancy talk, it is: Identification with the aggressor). There are some similarities between us. They, like we, insist on their Jewishness. We do so without the trappings of religious belief; they do it in spite of "discovering" that Christ is the Messiah. Neither group is acceptable to mainstream Judaism, yet both groups hope for that kind of respectability. And both groups love lox and bagels and cream cheese for breakfast. I mean, are we mishpokhe (family), or what? Bertram Rothschild